I've been reading this board for two seasons and have finally decided to post. High School varsity game played under NFHS rules. The starting catcher gets a base hit in the first inning. The coach legally replaces her with a courtesy runner as he always does because the catcher is a girl of size and wears a knee brace. She can hardly run at all. Anyway, later in the game, the coach has put made several defensive changes and the starting catcher is now playing 3rd base. She comes up to bat and gets another base hit. Coach yells time and sends out the same courtesy runner but of course you can't have a courtesy runner for the third baseman. A pitch is thrown and the opposing coach protests. Since the runner is an available sub, is this treated as an unreported sub and issue a team warning or do we call the runner out and restrict her to the bench?

Interesting question. When the coach approached the PU, what did he say. Did he say that he wanted to put in so and so as a courtesy runner? If so, the PU should have, at that time, told the coach that he cannot do this. That would have eliminated all of the problems then and there. All subs, CRs included, must be reported to the plate umpire. If the CR or the sub was not reported to the PU, then you have an unreported sub.

When the coach "yells time and sends out the same courtesy runner," was nothing said about a courtesy runner coming in to the plate umpire?

By the way...welcome to the board.

I've been doing high school ball and NSA Travel ball and have known this player for years. I have never seen her play any position but catcher. I was (I admit) a mental error on my part. By the way, I ruled an unreported sub and had no problems. It was a good reminder to stay sharp and to take nothing for granted.

re:
 

+1

So....you are saying that you will accept illegal substitutions when they are reported to you?

Coach: Hey, Blue!
Umpire: What's up, Coach?
Coach: My runner on 2B is a little on the slow side, so on the 2nd pitch, she's gonna leave a little early, okay?
Umpire: Yeah, no problem unless the other team complains and shows they know the rules.
Coach: Thanks, Blue, knew you would understand.

That's just wrong.

If I'm aware that the offense is trying to put in a CR for someone other than F1 or F2, I won't allow it. If it happens without my knowledge, then we have some fixing to do.

And how do you know the defensive coach knows the rules or not?

Twice now in recent tournaments while on the bases, I overheard the coach tell the PU that "the Flex and DP were swapping". I went in and talked to the PU [different guys] and told him to clarify w/ the coach and that someone had now left the game.

Coach: Hey Blue, I am going to "courtesy run" for my P.
Umpire: Sorry Coach, but you are not currently on the lineup card.

As you say, a silly comparison. The coach does not report each batter as she comes up. The coach does report CRs and subs. I am not going to knowingly record an illegal change on the lineup card.

BTW, did anyone notice this thread is over 40 years old (in dog years), resurrected by some pointless bump?

Reported?

Who said anything about pointing it out to the offended team?

Would you accept an illegal lineup at the plate meeting? No? Then why would you accept an illegal lineup in the 3rd inning (or whenever)?

Yup.

So...now I am really curious. How would you "not accept" the illegal change but not let the coach know???

If you don't accept the change, you say something along the lines of "coach, that can't be done."

As silly as you believed my previous scenario, it is quite applicable. OUR POINT is why would you knowingly effect a violation of the rules?

You are not assisting anyone other than yourself. You are doing the job for which you are being paid.

[QUOTE=umpire12;770412]
Disagree with the bolded part...... If the player that runs for (now) F5 is an eligible sub, it is not an illegal player, merely an unreported sub.

NFHS...2011 rule book (may be different from 2005)

8-9-1: The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time....

Penalty: Illegal substitute as in 3-4

3-4 Penalty: Illegal sub restricted to the dugout and called out.

On the issue of preventative umpiring in a situation like this...I discussed this with an ASA regional UIC at the clinic earlier this year. I had the same question as umpire12....at what point does preventative umpiring become coaching? How would you respond to a DC that says that you (umpire) can't tell the OC that he is making an illegal substitution and taking away his (DC) opportunity to get an out and a player removed from the game?

The response should be: Coach - I would do the same thing for you if you inadvertantly tried to do something illegal with the lineup.

I can live with that.

Explain to me how you would keep a legal lineup card in your pocket without "coddling" the coach who is reporting an illegal change to the lineup? A change to the lineup is required, by rule, to go through the plate umpire. The only way an illegal player should ever end up in the game is if the illegal player is also unreported.

I "volunteer" the number of outs sometimes, especially if I am working alone. I also will tell any player or coach who asks. If I'm PU, after a long pause (such as bringing in a relief pitcher, tending to an injured player, etc.) I will restate the count (if applicable) and the number of outs. However, I find the practice of pointing out to the relief pitcher where the runners are to be mildly bush league and unnecessary.

Why look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
If F7 is the current batter, the answer is simply, "Flex can only hit for DP."

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, you can only CR for P or C."

Why would you look at the lineup card to see what we can do, when there is nothing "we can do"?
"Coach, your sub is done and may not re-enter."

I do not consider any of my responses assisting the coach.

Question to you, is why did coach wait until the 2nd inning?

Simple answer to all of your scenarios.

"No, coach, you can't do that." Possibly a brief explanation along the lines tcannizzo gave, but that's it. If he is truly so clueless he continues to offer illegal changes, I may just tell him to sit down unless he wants to make a legal change and quit wasting my time.

I don't understand what you would do that would not have you enter an illegal change on your lineup card. So, answer your own scenario. What would YOU do?

Didn't you say that the coach said "i want my flex to bat for SS"? or did the coach actually say something else, like "#22 batting for #7", then in the process of validating the substitution you noticed that #22 is Flex and #7 was not the DP. Taking to the nth degree, the DP might have been playing SS at the time.

The question is how long to let this thread continue trying to answer questions that you didn't ask - or did you?

So, I ask again, what would you do? (And denying a coach the opportunity to make an illegal change is hardly protestable.)

What would you do? Answer the question.

Dakota,
I'm not sure where this is going...

FWIW, here is what I would do.

After the sub was given to me and (before I accepted it) I noticed it would be illegal, I would inform the coach that the substitution would be illegal - he can't do it.
I can't imagine him insisting I make the substitution, BUT if she did, I'd accept it. record it, announce it.

Then when I put the ball in play, I'd have to stop play and enforce the illegal player penalty.

I can't imagine it getting to that, but, that's all I can figure to do.

Speaking ASA,

To start, lets note that there is no "illegal substitution" in ASA. You have an "unreported substitute" or an "illegal player".

At this point, you have already warned the coach that this substitution was a violation of the rules. If the coach then insisted on violating the rule after a warning, the game is over. (ASA 5.4.F) Extreme, absolutely. However, when you tell the coach that if s/he insist on making the change the game will be forfeited, most likely the issue would disappear.

Well, you cannot do that. If the violation is deemed that of an illegal player, this must be protested by the offended team. (ASA 4.6.E)

(For the record, I'm aware that there is no such thing as an illegal sub - just worded it the way I did because substituting an illegal player would be, well, illegal:) - or as you so accurately put it, a violation of the rules)....)

Be that as it may, I wouldn't really expect the coach to continue with the substitution anyway, but in the unlikely event that she did I now know the next step.

Thanks

(edited to add):

Just got back to my desk and realized that my original answer camer from NFHS (with which I am more familiar than ASA).

NFHS 3-4 recognizes an illegal substitute and that

"Illegal offensive or defensive players may be discovered by the
umpire or either team anytime after the ball becomes live and an illegal substitute
has taken a position as:
a. a runner she has replaced or as a batter in the batter's box;
b. a pitcher on the pitcher's plate, or as a fielder reaching a position usually
occupied by the fielder being replaced; or
c. a courtesy runner if that player has violated the courtesy-runner rule."

I'll check my shirt before deciding how to handle the situation..... ;-)


Either way, I still think it is pretty unlikely that after being informed of the situation, it is unlikely that head coach would continue with the illegal substitution (or substitution of an illegal player).

Where this was going was trying to get our friend to quit being a troll and actually say what HE would do.

What do you call someone who only argues and offers nothing positive to a discussion?

And, the difference between Mike's response and mine is he threatened to forfeit the game, and I would've told the coach to sit down. I guess he would win the protest, but lose the game by forfeit as a result? Sure, that would happen.

In reality, neither my ultimate response nor Mike's would ever happen. I've dealt with this situation (coach wanting to do something that he can't with the lineup) many times, and the coach always, without fail, and without argument, makes a legal choice.

You, OTOH, would apparently fill out an illegal lineup and see if anyone notices. Thanks for finally answering the question. It sure seemed like you apparently wanted everyone else (but not you) to answer your questions so you could argue more.

Yet, you refused repeated requests to actually answer the question while pressing the argument to greater levels of absurdity. Speak for yourself.

Per the book, why is an unreported substitute (4.6.B) or an illegal player (4.6.E) handled as a protest rather than an appeal? A protest may mean stopping the game and finding the UIC.

You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "argument", tending to focus on the very narrow meaning of quarrel. That is your problem, not mine. Here, maybe this will help:

Definition of ARGUMENT
: a reason given in proof or rebuttal
: discourse intended to persuade
: a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion

And, quit using your narrow understanding of the language to attempt to assign emotion to my typed words, or to my thinking behind them.

No, I learned nothing about umpiring from your arguments; perhaps I did learn a bit about you.

Speculation, mind you, but here are several reasons:

1) When the rules were changed (several times, actually, but I have a totally rewritten section in the 1999 book), they didn't propose to add another item to the finite list of appeals in the book. Could have been proposed by the authors, or the editors could have addressed the issue; obviously not.

2) All appeals, as defined, are actually violations by the offense that only the defense can initiate a call. The rulebook editors of that time wouldn't have accepted this as an "appeal" because these violations CAN be made by the defense and the "protest" invoked by the offense (AND even by the umpire in NFHS).

3) Simply a poor choice of words. These aren't actually handled as a protest, despite the rule wording. Has anyone ever demanded a protest fee and then brought the UIC or Protest Committee over to address the "protest" of an unreported sub or illegal player? Of course not.

Hate to say it, but NCAA rules are more accurate here; they don't use appeal OR protest, as both are incorrect. NCAA simply addresses that the violations are REPORTED by the offended team, and then ruled on appropriately.

What you seem to be missing here, and what Tom is trying to get you to see in a round about way, is that Mike (Irishmafia), offered no other course of action than either Tom or myself had previously posited. Yet, only because he took it to the absolutely extreme of what he would do if the coach insisted on taking an illegal course of action after being told by the umpire it was an illegal course of action, you seem to think there was some epiphany. This is what we would all have done when pushed to that point. Yet, as noted by Tom in an earlier post, it will never come to that because when you tell a coach something is illegal, they always take the legal course of action,

Now, the reason I put part of the previous paragraph in bold and italic type is this; your initial argument with myself was because I had mentioned that I would tell the coach that the substitution they were wanting to make was illegal. Both Tom and myself asked you how you would handle, then, and you never gave us an answer. You still haven't given an answer. However, by the fact that you now agree so wholeheartedly with Mike, establishing the fact that you have learned and grown as an umpire, is it safe to assume that you would now, in fact, tell the coach trying to make an illegal substitution that they action they were taking was illegal? Has this changed your belief that an umpire refusing to take an illegal substitution is, in some form or fashion, coaching?

sorry all, just a note to read this when I have more time :)