Batting Out Order or Just Wrong Numbers?

[streamdoc]

This happened in a Varsity HS game yesterday. Visiting coach inserts a sub (#4) into the 3rd place in the batting order. Number 8 has been batting 4th and continues to do so. He also inserts #11 into the 5th slot in the order. The substitutions occured at the top of the inning, prior to first pitch, and were properly communicated to me (PU) and the home team. B3 gets on base. B4 gets on base. B5 comes up to bat and takes a pitch. At this point the home team mentions that B5 is batting out of order. I call the visiting coach over and he says that the actual players are in the right order, he just gave me the wrong numbers for them. Turns out, they are twins (#s 4 & 11), and he got confused when reporting them. Since he had the right players batting in the order that he intended (and yes, I do believe that this was the case), is it correct to simply make the numbers changes in the book, or do we actually go with batting out of order, and enforce the penalty?

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by streamdoc
...they are twins (#s 4 & 11), and he got confused...

IMHO... if he listed the substitutes on the line-up card as, for example, #4-Mary & #11-Sue, and the numbers were correct, then if he gave you substitutions based on those numbers, he is responsible if he got them mixed up... even if mixed up honestly.

If the subs were not listed on the line-up card, and if you took the sub by number without asking for the name, then shame on you. I'll let you figure out how to get yourself out of the jam you just got in. (I think you would have to assume the number to be right and rule batting out of order.)

If the coach had the numbers and names of the subs listed on the card, but he had the wrong number with the wrong name, then as long as the named player is in the proper slot, the mistake on the numbering is just corrected in the scorebooks and on your score card with no penalty.

[streamdoc]

I don't actually know if the names on the line-up card had the right numbers or not. They were both on the card from the beginning. I should have dug a little deeper on the field when trying to sort this thing out. I could have said, "o.k. Coach, you are subbing #4, Mary in the lineup for #10" and so on, but I just accepted the subs as #4 for #10 and went with it. If I had mentioned the name, perhaps he would have caught his mistake and we would not have had this situation. Because he had the correct players batting in the correct order, but had their numbers reversed when he reported them, I just had the books corrected and we played on. FWIW - the visiting team was up by 8 runs, this was the 5th inning, and I was hoping that they would score at least 2, get 3 quick ones in the bottom half of the inning, and we could all get out of there. I did not make a consious decision to allow the batting out of order for this reason, but probably did not put the time into correcting it, feeling rushed to get off the field. This game was a real dragger, and I was getting beat up behind the plate (balls, cather's mask, everything they could hit me with, they did).

[debeau]

Take the sub by numbers so coaches fault .
What is the penalty at the time of the appeal ?
Think carefully

[streamdoc]

... among the veteran umps that I was working with yesterday was that we would simply bring up the correct batter and she would assume the 1-0 count. All action by previous incorrect batters is now correct because of the pitch thrown to B5. I'll try to use the standard line-up format to explain this again.

Lineup for top of inning

B
C
D
E
F

D comes to bat instead of B, singles
C comes to bat, doubles - making D now legal, D goes to third
B comes to bat, takes a ball. Defense notifies that we have batting out of order.
E replaces B and assumes the 1-0 count.

Now, there was a great deal of discussion surrounding this scenario. I'm not confident that this is the correct solution, and would welcome other's input.

thanks,

[debeau]

Correct.
To have an out the defense must appeal at the correct time ie after the turn at bat but before the next pitch .
In this case just put the correct batter in assuming the count .

[bkbjones]

I found our scratch sheet from this weekend and looked at it again...and my answer from this weekend is still right. It's still right. Even debeau agrees.

Now go save some habitat and have fun on the diamond.

BTW, I had the same team on Monday. They're not worth a flip at softball (gave up two touchdowns in first inning) but DAMN THEY'RE BIG. And I can see how the coach could be confused...geez louise

[streamdoc]

I had their JV team on Tuesday. The pitcher couldn't find the plate and the Blanchet JV coach pulled his team off of the field in the 2nd after scoring 6-7 in the 1st and the same in the 2nd without seeing an out. Not sure what the rules say about that, but that's what we did. He also turned his entire team into left-handers, and they still scored runs.

Sorry for hijacking the thread with PNW highschool talk.

BTW John - were you on the dish, and did the big catcher keep throwing her mask at you? I'm still sore from getting hit 6-7 times in that game.

[Edited by streamdoc on May 5th, 2005 at 03:03 PM]

[bkbjones]

I was ready for her. She flung that thing at me several times last summer down at The Zoo. Caught it once. Then they moved her to short, the pitcher (LH) came in to catch, and SS pitched.

She should be throwing the shot over at the track.