Obstruction/must slide

[88fordman]

My first game umping and I had this situation.
ASA rules CO-ED game. Runner is coming in from 3rd and picture has come to the plate to catch the ball thrown from shortstop. The pitcher has one foot behind plate and one in front of plate with body over plate. Runner doesn't slide and makes collision as the ball is about to be received by the pitcher. Do you call abstruction for the pitcher blocking the plate or do you call the runner out for not sliding. I called the runner out for not sliding.
Thanks
Steve

[mcrowder]

You might call both if runner altered his/her path or reacted to the fielder in the basepath without the ball, but even so, the INT overrides the OBS. You did right.

Note that this play is often not even OBS. It is not illegal to be in the basepath without the ball. It is only illegal if that action causes a runner to react. OBS requires both.

[Rattlehead]

How is the Act of the Runner not sliding called INT?

Here is the rule out of the book:

Section 7. THE RUNNER IS OUT.

J. When the runner interferes:

1. With a fielder attempting to field a batted fair ball, or
2. With a fielder attempting to field a fly ball over foul territory, or
3. With a fielder attempting to throw the ball, or
4. Intentionally with a thrown ball.
a. If this interference, in the judgment of the umpire, is an obvious attempt to prevent a double play and occurs before the runner is put out, the immediate succeeding runner shall also be called out.
5. Intentionally with any defensive player having the opportunity to make an out with the deflected batted ball.


Unless you deem that the runner didn't slide to intentially break up the play you have a wreck and a no call.

If you feel that the runner did this intentially and the contact was excessive you have an Out and and Ejection.

Since the Runner didn't deviate or slow down due the pitcher being infront of the plate, there would be no OBS.

Of Course I may be wrong again.

[wadeintothem]

Its an out with possible ejection...

You do probably have OBS, which the runner could have gotten had the she not ran into the fielder fielding a thrown ball without sliding.

So runner out for illegal contact in ASA and Fed. I dont have my books handy to give a ref as I left them in the car and am feeling lazy.. but you made the right call.

[Dakota]

You've overlooked 8-7-Q.

[Dakota]

My only quibble with the original call is the explanation, "for not sliding."

That is not why you called the runner out. You called the runner out for remaining upright and crashing into a fielder.

Do note, however, that ASA has removed the "about to catch" clause from 8-7-Q. It was there last year. Now it is gone. NFHS retains the "about to catch" clause in their version of this rule.

[wadeintothem]

Originally posted by Dakota
My only quibble with the original call is the explanation, "for not sliding."

That is not why you called the runner out. You called the runner out for remaining upright and crashing into a fielder.

Do note, however, that ASA has removed the "about to catch" clause from 8-8-Q. It was there last year. Now it is gone. NFHS retains the "about to catch" clause in their version of this rule.

I just say "runner out for illegal contact" to coaches.. if they dont like it they can go read a rule book.

[Rattlehead]

8-7-Q


Q. When a defensive player has the ball, or is about to catch a thrown ball, and the runner remains upright and crashes into the defensive player. If the act is determined to be flagrant, the offender shall be ejected. An errant throw drawing the defense into the path of the runner is not interference.


I agree that if the contact if flagrant then yes they are OUT and I would send the runner to the parking lot.

If this is a situation where there is less then two outs R1 on 3 and the ball is hit to the shortstop and instead of the SS sending the ball to 1 they go home with it the runner may not even expect the play. If it is E Rec Ball thr runner may not even being paying attention.

[wadeintothem]

the out is no matter what if the conditions are met. That is a "The Runner is Out" rule.

The flagrant comes into play for the ejection and only for the ejection.

I define flagrant as putting shoulder or force into it, anything extra - and have ejected both HS and Rec Leaguers for it.

[Rattlehead]

I guess that If I learned to read, it would make umpiring alot easier.

I was about to ask where is the book does it say that you must slide?

After reading 8-7-Q about 6 times I now have a better understanding of the rule.

Thanks for not beating me too much.



[Edited by Rattlehead on Apr 27th, 2005 at 02:06 PM]

[wadeintothem]

no.. it doesnt make easier.

It makes it harder..
umpires that sit and do nothing all game have it the easiest... those that try to learn and do our job have it hardest.

[88fordman]

Here is a little more info that may help everyone. It is a rec league lowest division. I didn't in my mind feel the runner was intentionally coliding with the pitcher/catcher.
Therefore no expulsion.
It was more a matter of the guy had shorts on and didn't want to slide. I don't use that as an excuse for not sliding but you see it all the time. I am not sure if it is a local rule or maybe an ASA, but at our local meeting it was emphasised that when there is a play at the base, the runner MUST slide to avoid a collision. That is what I based my call on and it was OK, until the 6th inning when the oposing team had a similar situation happen. There was a runner coming home and the throw was up the 1st base line about 5-10 feet. I didn't call the runner out for not sliding. The other team questioned it and I said there was no PLAY the ball was offline. The catcher however didn't move upline far enough to catch the ball and there was some contact with the runner and catcher. After the game the first team asked what the difference was. Why was there guy called out and not the other teams. I explained it to them.
They questioned the pitcher/catcher blocking the plate as obstruction. I reiterated that you MUST slide therefore my ruling.

[Andy]

Originally posted by 88fordman
....I am not sure if it is a local rule or maybe an ASA, but at our local meeting it was emphasised that when there is a play at the base, the runner MUST slide to avoid a collision....

Because there is no such ASA rule, it has to be a local or league rule. I would recommend that you take this back to your UIC and get a clarification. What constitutes a "play"? What is the definition of "slide"?

I have seen this same local rule and do not like it. In my opinion, the room for interpretation from umpire to umpire is too broad and leads to the rule being applied inconsistantly. Not to mention the liability issues raised when a player slides incorrectly and seriously injures themself because the league mandates a slide....

[Rattlehead]

Andy,

From what I read of the ASA rule is does say you must slide.


The Runner is Out
8-7-Q. When a defensive player has the ball, or is about to catch a thrown ball, and the runner remains upright and crashes into the defensive player.
If the act is determined to be flagrant, the offender shall be ejected. An errant throw drawing the defense into the path of the runner is not interference.

I Haven't checked the Acutal 2005 book yet but the file I got this from says it has been done word for word.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Rattlehead
From what I read of the ASA rule is does say you must slide.


The Runner is Out
8-7-Q. When a defensive player has the ball, or is about to catch a thrown ball, and the runner remains upright and crashes into the defensive player.
If the act is determined to be flagrant, the offender shall be ejected. An errant throw drawing the defense into the path of the runner is not interference.

Rattlehead. Nowhere in this rule that you are quoting does it say that a runner must slide. ASA, and most other organizations will not say that. Too many liability issues involved. What the runner can do is remain upright and avoid contact with the defensive person, OR, they can slide.