Foul Ball (hits batter in box)

[jstone999]

Okay, I know that umpires do not coach, and do not want to coach, and do not want to advise me how to coach. BUT:

It has happened twice this week: the batter hits the ball and it comes up and hits her while she's standing in the box. Umpire doesn't see it. The batter stands there, then when no foul is called decides to run. Catcher picks up the ball and easily throws her out at first. Now we've got an out when there should have been a foul ball.

The first time caught me totally by surprise, and it was a total blowout anyway (we were at least ten runs down) so I let it go (the opposite coach told me after the inning that it was the umpires first game, and I said, "It's okay, it ain't gonna make a difference anyway. They need the experience."

Sunday it could have made a difference. So I ask the umpire, "did you see the ball hit her after she batted it?" No. "Could you ask your partner if he saw it hit her?" Sure. He trots off to his partner, I trot off to my coach's box on third. After conferring with his partner: Out.

Now, I realise that the plate ump might not have seen it because of the way the batter stood during the hit. I also realise that BU might not have seen it (my first base coach also didn't see it). So I'm not arguing whether the umpires should have seen it: they can't see everything.

My question is how to coach my girls. Should they simply run to first as if it were fair (risking a very probable out at first) or should they:

1. Put on a little show acting like they've been hit by the ball and that it hurt and, "Ouch, it hit me, Oh... (This has been suggested to me as the best possibility).

2. Tell the umpire, "The ball hit me!" and hope to get a foul call.

Had it not happened twice this week I wouldn't think about it. But I have to coach them to do something, and #1 I don't like. I don't believe in "theater". That's why I'm asking you here: the ball was foul. What should the player do? Run to first or stand there and tell you it hit her?

I don't really expect you to choose #1. But perhaps you could give me a reasonable alternative to #2.

jeffstone
goettingen

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by jstone999
Okay, I know that umpires do not coach, and do not want to coach, and do not want to advise me how to coach. BUT:

It has happened twice this week: the batter hits the ball and it comes up and hits her while she's standing in the box. Umpire doesn't see it. The batter stands there, then when no foul is called decides to run. Catcher picks up the ball and easily throws her out at first. Now we've got an out when there should have been a foul ball.

The first time caught me totally by surprise, and it was a total blowout anyway (we were at least ten runs down) so I let it go (the opposite coach told me after the inning that it was the umpires first game, and I said, "It's okay, it ain't gonna make a difference anyway. They need the experience."

Sunday it could have made a difference. So I ask the umpire, "did you see the ball hit her after she batted it?" No. "Could you ask your partner if he saw it hit her?" Sure. He trots off to his partner, I trot off to my coach's box on third. After conferring with his partner: Out.

Now, I realise that the plate ump might not have seen it because of the way the batter stood during the hit. I also realise that BU might not have seen it (my first base coach also didn't see it). So I'm not arguing whether the umpires should have seen it: they can't see everything.

My question is how to coach my girls. Should they simply run to first as if it were fair (risking a very probable out at first) or should they:

1. Put on a little show acting like they've been hit by the ball and that it hurt and, "Ouch, it hit me, Oh... (This has been suggested to me as the best possibility).

2. Tell the umpire, "The ball hit me!" and hope to get a foul call.

Had it not happened twice this week I wouldn't think about it. But I have to coach them to do something, and #1 I don't like. I don't believe in "theater". That's why I'm asking you here: the ball was foul. What should the player do? Run to first or stand there and tell you it hit her?

I don't really expect you to choose #1. But perhaps you could give me a reasonable alternative to #2.

jeffstone
goettingen

I umpire both baseball and softball and both my sons play baseball. I have taught my sons that when they make contact with the ball, they are to run until they hear an umpire yell foul or foul ball.

MTD, Sr.

[whiskers_ump]

Foul Ball (hits batter in box)


I know I should'nt, but .......I hope this was a male SP
game.

[Steve M]

Glen,
Are you remembering my telling of my first women's game???

A number of years ago, I was only umpiring men's fastpitch when I was asked to work some women's games. During one of those games, I had a batter foul the pitch & the foul hit her while she was still in the batter's box. My call went some thing like "Dead ball, Got 'er in the box." Loudly enough so that all play stopped. The batter turned to me & said "No Ump, it got me on the leg." I was unable to do much of anything except stand there feeling dumb, numb, & bright red. Needless to say, that was the last time I made that call.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Steve M
Glen,
Are you remembering my telling of my first women's game???

A number of years ago, I was only umpiring men's fastpitch when I was asked to work some women's games. During one of those games, I had a batter foul the pitch & the foul hit her while she was still in the batter's box. My call went some thing like "Dead ball, Got 'er in the box." Loudly enough so that all play stopped. The batter turned to me & said "No Ump, it got me on the leg." I was unable to do much of anything except stand there feeling dumb, numb, & bright red. Needless to say, that was the last time I made that call.

Steve,
Exactly the play I was thinking of and hoping you would come forward and
present it again for all the 'newbies'. Thanks. I did not want to
steal your story.

[Steve M]

Glen,
I thought so. Very much like the time when my daughter was in a car seat while I was driving. Somebody cut me off and before I could say anything or even hit the steering wheel I hear this little voice say "Daddy, was that an a$$hole?"

You'd have thought I'd have learned then to watch what & when I say things. I finally learned after the softball incident.

[whiskers_ump]

ROFLMAO Now, that thar is funny.
Kids will repeat the darnest things.

[debeau]

Umpires only call what they see .
However as in most situations we get as much info as we can
So , personally ,if I am unsure I look for what the batter does .
To make a small drama out of being hit or trying to pretend to be hit doesnt work .
Most experienced umpires can tell the difference .
Take the risk. Either tell your girls to take off and hope the ump has seen it or dramatise and hope this decides for him .

[jstone999]

Well, I guess I've been in Germany too long--I'm out of touch with my own slang.

My son generally speaks German, but occasionally comes up with an English swear word (he's six). I always think...now where did he hear that?

But back to my original question: if the batter tells you "it hit me..." do you consider it at all? Or must you SEE it yourself?

I've coached them to run until they hear the umpire say "foul." But recent experience suggests I should seek another alternative.

jeffstone
goettingen

[debeau]

Again an umpire can only call what they see .
If I changed a call everytime a player suggested something I , well , I wouldnt be an Ump very long plus I would be demoted to z grade .

[Andy]

Jeff - coach your players to run to first if there is any question in their minds.

As a Plate Umpire, this is not always easy to see. As you mentioned, the batter may be turned with her back to us and our view is blocked. You can always ask the umpire to check with his partner (if there is one). But, if I have to check this with my partner then s/he is not doing a part of their job. I expect my partner to call this immediately if I do not. As a base umpire, if I see the batted ball hit the batter, I will wait a split second to see if my partner calls it and if he does not, then I will step in and make the call. I am only going to kill the play, it's up to my partner to determine whether or not the batter was in the box.

[streamdoc]

Greetings,

I'm curious - In the original question post, the coach says that after the umpires got together, they called the batter out. As I read his question, she was still in the box. Would this not just be a dead ball/foul ball since she was in the box? She would only be out if she and the ball came into contact once she left the box. Am I missing something in the question?

Also, Steve M - thanks for relaying that anecdote. The best part of the story is the batter's response to you. Keeping a sense of humor about things - I like it!

[jstone999]

Originally posted by streamdoc
Greetings,

I'm curious - In the original question post, the coach says that after the umpires got together, they called the batter out. As I read his question, she was still in the box. Would this not just be a dead ball/foul ball since she was in the box? She would only be out if she and the ball came into contact once she left the box. Am I missing something in the question?

Yes, what you missed is that she hesitated to run, then ran, and was thrown out at first. That's the issue. It was clearly a foul ball. The umpires didn't see it so didn't call it. She ran and was thrown out. Thus my question whether she should stay put and say "it hit me" and hope for the best, or take off when she will most likely be thrown out.

After it happened the week before, I coached them to run until they hear the umpire yell foul. Then, this Sunday, the batter hesitated (against my coaching: but she later told me she thought it was obvious she was hit, so didn't run) and was thrown out. Then one of our more "experienced" players said she should have made a show of it, which didn't sit well with me. So I put it here in an umpire forum to find out how umpires see this situation. Debeau quite rightly says an umpire can't call what he doesn't see.

I guess this is just one of those frustrating situations where there is no right answer. The umpires cannot see everything. Being thrown out at first on a foul ball is, however, frustrating. And "putting on a show" runs against my nature, though other coaches probably have a different view of the game. I'm not a rat. I want to win, but I want to win because we played better according to the rules, not because we cut a few corners when possible. Maybe that makes me a bad coach. But I love the game and have a good conscience.

jeffstone
goettingen

[streamdoc]

Coach,

I didn't miss the fact that she ran and was thrown out. What I read was that you asked the umpires to get together to discuss whether or not one of them saw the ball hit her. After conferring, they called the batter out. I see now, that what you probably meant was that they got together, neither of them saw the ball hit the batter, and called her out on the 2-3 putout.

In response to your question, I'll take the chance to tell a coach how to coach (they seem to have no problems telling umpires how to umpire). Teach them to run on any contact with the ball, and let the umpires sort out the play.

FYI - the above in parenthesis was meant in jest.

[wadeintothem]

you teach your kids to run.

BU is the second eyes on this and should be watching for it on every pitch... but it gets missed and if it is missed they are going to get thrown out if they hang out in the Batters box.

If it gets seen, no harm in running. Dead ball - return

I've done plenty of coaching and the rule is run til you are told to stop.. no batter calls it foul his/her self.