Appeal on force play

[wolhiser]

12U Girls fastpitch. One out, runners at 1st and 2nd.
Ground ball to infield, defense throws to third.
The play is very close, FU (in position behind 3rd base) calls runner safe.
Defensive team's coach appeals to PU, PU & FU meet, and PU calls runner out.
Questions:
1. Can this play be appealed?
2. If not, can the call/game be protested by offensive coach?
3. What play's (according to ASA) can be appealed?

[WestMichBlue]

"Defensive team's coach appeals to PU, PU & FU meet, and PU calls runner out.

Terrible mistake(s)! When PU is first approached by coach his first, and only words are "Not my call, Coach!"

If coach gets the message and goes to BU and give him a valid request to discuss the play with his partner (ie., BU out of position, ball was dropped, etc) then BU may decide to talk to partner.

Whatever the decision, it is the BU's to call. The PU should never over-rule the call.

Questions:
1. Can this play be appealed?

Technically, not an appeal. (See below.) The coach should request of the calling umpire to discuss the play with his partner IF the coach can provide a legitimate reason that the calling ump was unable to make the correct call. (Umpire judgment NOT included!)

2. If not, can the call/game be protested by offensive coach?

NO! Lousy umpire procedures are not protestable. And you don't have a rule violation.

3. What play's (according to ASA) can be appealed?

Leaving early on a caught fly ball; missing a base; attempting to go to 2B after over-running 1B; and BOO. That's it; those four are universal in most rulebooks.

WMB

[SC Ump]

The call belongs to the base umpire, BU. An "FU" is how we refer to a missed call. (For those with sensitive demeanors, that's a "foul-up".)

If the BU wants to discuss it with their partner, either because a coach has asked a question, or because the BU just wants to, the BU can. If after that discussion, the BU wants to change the call, it is allowed.

The coach has no right to require the BU to seek assistance. A coach's dissatisfaction in a judgment call does not constitute the right to protest. Protests are for misapplications of the specifics of a rule.

In your scenario, my concern would be the PU discussing with the coach a call by the BU. If I had been the BU, I would have stated to the to coach, "That was my call, if you've got a question about it, talk to me." After the game, I would have repremanded my partner.

"Appeals" are for base running infractions that must be ruled on, e.g. a runner missed touching a base or left early on a caught fly ball. They are not for overriding judgment. Some organizations instruct their umpires to always ask for help on a checked swing. I think this is the only time that 'requesting' help is dictated. I do not believe ASA requires this on a checked swing, but most good umpires always do.

Just because an umpire changes his call after asking his partner does not mean that the other umpire "over ruled" him. you tell your partner what you saw and ask what he saw. Either they agree, disagree or didn't see it. Then with this info or lack of, you stick with or change your call. One umpire should never change a call for another.

[wadeintothem]

shoulda just agreed with his call on the "appeal".. then told the BU during a private meeting between innings - dont appeal to me on a call like that again.

saves allota trouble and looking like dorks.

[WestMichBlue]

Junky: Just because an umpire changes his call after asking his partner does not mean that the other umpire "over ruled" him

Re-read the original posting. BU called the runner safe; after discussion PU called the runner out.

I would call that over-ruling - and unacceptable. Regardless of what goes on in the discussion; the umpire making the original call will announce the decision. Stay with the call, or change it; but it is by the calling umpire, not the partner.

WMB

[wadeintothem]

that would be the best option if you felt the overwhelming need to change a close play at a base or even grant that type of appeal.

[Dakota]

I agree with WMB's comments and analysis. I just want to add a couple in addition.

An appeal is an infraction that the umpire may have noticed, but cannot make a call until the other team "appeals."

Regarding appeal plays, and speaking ASA, the only appeal the coach is allowed to make is batting out of order. The others must be made by the players. Of course, coaches may coach - that is, they may tell the players to make the appeal. But, they may not do it directly.

Regarding using the word "appeal" in the context of the original play. "Appeal" is the common word coaches, players, and fans use for this situation, but as pointed out, it is not technically an appeal. From the defintion of an appeal (paraphrased above), you can see that. If the BU saw the play as an out, he would not need an "appeal" to call it so.

But, as much as we would like and as much as we try to educate, this will always be referred to by fans and coachs as an "appeal."

Finally, we are depending on the description of the fan/coach as to which umpire was approached, how the discussion took place, and which umpire announced the decision. Certainly, as described, it was wrong.

[rhsc]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
shoulda just agreed with his call on the "appeal".. then told the BU during a private meeting between innings - dont appeal to me on a call like that again.

saves allota trouble and looking like dorks.

I dont know if you ever have had a chance to watch home videos of the games, and I hope Im not the first say this, but we look like dorks anyway.
I do agree that this was handled awkwardly and theres know way for the officials to look good with this type of sorta showing up your partner. Around here we use hand jesters to let each other know what we saw, just to avoid such conferences. Not that Im against it if needed, but just to save face. (I need all the help I can get there too)

[blcump]

Going to one's partner just to appease coaches has almost become an epidemic. There is only one reason to go to your partner (other than on a check swing) - if and only if you are missing a piece of information relative to the call.
If a coach asks you to go to your partner, there must be,in YOUR mind, a piece of the puzzle you don't have. What most coaches don't realize is that most of us will ask for help immediately on a pulled foot or a bobble if we have any doubt.
Stay on top of your game. If a coach wants you to ask your partner something, don't do it just to do it. It's your call, and if you have it tell the coach you have it and let's continue to play ball. Don't put your partner on the spot like that - it just ticks everybody off.