Girl on third base with two out. Catcher drops third strike. Catcher trys unsuccessfully to tag out runner coming in from third, then tags out batter for third out. Umpire says the run scores because of continuation and the attempt at the third base runner. I thought even a tag out before a runner reaches first constitutes a force play for the third out and nobody scores. What if the catcher did succesfully throw to first after missing runner coming home? Thanx!

Blue loses on this one. BR must reach first safely NO MATTER WHAT ELSE HAPPENS OR HOW THE BR IS PUT OUT. If that BR doesn't touch first after she has become a base runner with 2 outs, there ain't nobody scoring.

I hate to throw a damp towel in this, but are you really saying that a steal of home does not count because the batter didn't get to first on time? I'd like to see the NFHS cite on this. Thanks.

Instead of throwing wet towels around, let's just go to the book.

NFHS 9 (Scoring) - 1.1 A runner scores each time she .....touches .....home plate before there are three outs ......

Exceptions: A run IS NOT SCORED if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before touching first base.

Should be plain - doesn't matter if R1 is stealing, or coming home on a batted ball, or on an uncaught third strike. Her run does not count if the B-R is put out before reaching 1B.

WMB

"Umpire says the run scores because of continuation and the attempt at the third base runner."

I thought scoring on a "continuation play" was only in basketball.

Bob

We have had a large debate recently on this one .
Fielders choice to try and get 3rd out from runner which missed so run scores on a timong play .
Why penalise the offense for a defensive error .

<i>We have had a large debate recently on this one .
Fielders choice to try and get 3rd out from runner which missed so run scores on a timong play .
Why penalise the offense for a defensive error .</i>

Run does not score. See WMB's post. I think your joking here, right?

Another "interesting" interp from NZ. And wrong.

The rule is clear. The run doesn't score on ANY play where BR is retired before reaching first.

Consider several other similar scenarios.

Runner on 3rd, 2 out in all sitches.

1) Batter hits the ball right in front of the plate. F2 fields and tries to tag R1, fails, and fires to first to retire BR. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

2) R1 stealing, Batter foultips, which hits catchers glove, bounces up about 3 feet. Runner crosses plate prior to catcher catching it, but she DOES catch it. BR out. No run. (Is this how you'd call it in NZ?)

3) D3K, ball gets away, R1 crosses home (no attempt to retire her), F2 recovers in time to throw out BR at 1st. No run. (Assuming this one is REALLY easy, and even in NZ the run doesn't score.... but my question on this one is --- where in the rulebook do you justify scoring the run in the original sitch because of "an attempt to retire R1"?)

Defensive error? What about the point the offensive player failed to put the ball into play, struck out and apparently didn't even bother to attempt to reach first on an uncaught third strike?

Sorry, but on an U3K, all play is handled as if the ball were put into play by the batter. Another hand-me-down from the game of Rounders.

Would this not be a foul ball
 

Would this not be a foul ball? I've always been told that a foul tip must be caught cleanly. By definition a foul tip is....

A batted ball that goes DIRECTLY from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.

If the ball bounces up off of the catchers glove, then, in my opinion, the ball did not go DIRECTLY to the glove.

So in this situation I would have a foul ball and put the runner back on 3rd.

RW - Then where, in your opinion, did it go directly to?

It went....
 

To the glove, into the air, back to the glove. It wasn't caught cleanly. So a batted ball that goes from the bat back to the catcher who then juggles it (i.e goes from hand to glove and back several times) is a foul tip?

Has anyone else been told the same thing, that a foul tip must be caught cleanly?

Re: It went....
 

No, and by the definition of a foul tip it just states that a foul tip
is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's
mitt or hand and <b>is legally caught by the catcher</b>. Then go to Rule 2
Section 10 Art 2....

You actually answered your own question there, before the comma. Where did the ball go directly to? Answer: To the glove. Therefore, foul tip if eventually caught. The rule does not say "caught cleanly", or even "caught immediately". It says "and then caught legally".

Contrast this with a ball that goes directly to catcher's equipment and then is eventually caught ---- not a foul tip.

My momma told me to go directly to the store, without going over to Sneaky Pete's. So I went directly to the store. And then took the long way home. :)

Re: Re: It went....
 

I don't have a rule 2 Section 10 Art 2. Also, the definition of a foul tip says nothing about "sharply". Are you talking ASA or Fed? I'm talking ASA.

I still do not believe this is a foul tip, but I'll have to check with my UIC and adjust my understanding accordingly.

I'm not immune to changing how I call the game, when I've been proven wrong.

Re: It went....
 

FOUL TIP;

A batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.


Directly to the glove, and legally caught won't all have to be in the same second. Think about a legally caught fly ball. When can a runner tag? after the catch, or first contact?

Case Play 1-59
 

Can I remove this play from the case book? It seems to prove me wrong! DOH!

The ball goes directly from the bat, (a) touches the catcher's glove or hand and then rebounds from the catcher or their equipment, (b) from the bat, strikes the catcher's body, their protective equipment or the umpire. In both cases, the ball rebounds into the glove or hand or the catcher and is held.

Ruling: In (a) it is a foul tip and a strike, in (b) it is a foul ball. The ball cannot be a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher's glove or hand. (1-FOUL TIP; 1-FOUL BALL-G; 7-4D)

So if the ball goes directly to the hand or mit before touching anthing else other than the ground is it ia foul tip?
If we modify (a) so that the ball goes from the bat to the catcher's glove then off of the umpire into the catcher's glove, is this a foul tip? Or can it only rebound off of the catcher or catchers equipment after touching their glove?

Hijack ... but anyway
 

Notice it does not say "and is directly caught..."

The "directly" part means directly to what it touches first. Notice the companion rule, ASA 1-FOUL BALL-G where it goes directly to the catcher's equipment, rather than the hands or glove.

If the ball goes "indirectly" to the catcher's glove and is caught, it is a catch for an out. That is the distinction being made - does it first go directly to the glove/hands or not? Makes no difference if it rebounds up into the air after going directly to the hands; if it is caught, it is a foul tip. Otherwise, it is a foul ball.

Re: Hijack ... but anyway
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota
[B]Would it be an out if it goes "indirectly" to the catcher's glove? I don't think so. By "indirectly" this means it must have touched something else, such as the batter or the umpire. In both of these cases we have a foul ball and a strike if these than 2 strikes.

Re: Case Play 1-59
 

Must be caught, too.
Definition of catch; definition of foul ball. ASA 1-FOUL BALL-B.

Back on topic...
 

Excellent examples... suicide squeeze play with 2 outs. If the catcher makes a play on the runner, misses, and then fires to first for the out, you score the run? I don't think so!

Thanx fellas
 

that was quick. Now I have an umpire to go stalk and kill since it cost my daughter's High School team a share of the league lead. It doesn't surprise me though since I once saw the same ump call an infield fly rule with first base open that cost my niece a championship game. He admitted he was wrong but didn't rectify it.

Re: Case Play 1-59
 

Speaking FED

SECTION 25 FOUL BALL, FOUL TIP

ART. 1 . . . Foul Ball. A foul ball is a batted ball that:
d. while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire, a player or any object foreign to the natural ground;

ART. 2 . . . Foul Tip. A foul tip is a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike. (In fast pitch, the ball remains live, but in slow pitch, the ball becomes dead.)

SECTION 10 CATCH
ART. 1 . . . Catch. A catch is the act of a fielder who, with her hand(s) and/or glove/mitt, securely gains possession of a batted, pitched or thrown ball. A catch shall not be credited if:

e. The ball strikes anything or anyone other than a defensive player while it is in flight.
NOTE: In this case the ball is ruled a ground ball.

So IMO a ball off of the umpire would be a foul ball.

Re: Thanx fellas
 

Figuratively, speaking, I'm sure.

Re: Thanx fellas
 

BULL! If a team has to blame an umpire for their failure, they need to learn to play harder or find another pastime.

I'm sure your niece's team caught every ball cleanly, threw out every runner and batter runner, didn't walk any opposing batters and had extremely clean uniforms at the end of the game in the little town of Perfect, USA.

Always amazing, actually.

21 times, someone on the team either A) struck out, B) hit the ball in such a manner that she or a teammate was put out, or C) ran the bases in such a way that she was put out (don't bother with D, E, ad infinitum, I'm sure I missed something - but you get my point.) These 21 times, SOMEthing was executed poorly by the offense.

At the same time, pitcher or fielders performed their duties in such a fashion that the other team managed to get a run across the plate more times than they did.

And most seasons, this event (losing a game) happened multiple times.

And the umpire's single mistake "Cost my DD's team a share of the division lead." Unbelievable.

Take it easy...
 

.....the stalking is just a joke. I'm not one of those dad's that goes beserk on every pitch. Yes a team can easily blame an ump instead of themselves and have to account for their own failures. But so does the Ump! The game went into extra innings because the ump failed to interpret the rules, not because of a judgement call. If you take up umpiring, and this guys been doing it for over 20 years, you should at least make an attempt to understand the rules. Umpires take a lot of abuse and can never win, %50 of the people are usually mad at them. We did not abuse this ump for his ruling, merely pointed out his being wrong and continued play. They don't even allow for protests, so it could not be overruled. No, I'm not actually going to stalk the guy, I have better things to do, but I will notify him of his misinterpretation for further reference. I respect most Umps for putting up with unknowledgeable fans. I have a player's mentality (played USSSA A ball) and it would be tough for me to umpire even though I have successfully in the past. I'd end up telling the player to "shut up and hit the ball". And that is not good umping. Thanx again for verification fellas. Even though I was pretty sure I was right, I'm not so arrogant as to not ask others. All umps should use this forum to get better.

Oh...
 

....and by the way, yes teenage girls make mistakes and so do umps. But when an ump can rectify his mistake, and doesn't, he is arrogant. Don't tell me the call of "infield fly rule" with first base empty shoiuld have been overlooked because "Suzee" made two errors before the play. He could have advanced the runners one base and given the batter first base. The girls are whatthey are, the ump is a paid official. Nobody's perfect, but if you can't get that play right, then YOU should go find another past time.

The point being made was not that umpires should not know the rules (you're preaching to the choir on this board), but that umpires do make mistakes, even when they know the rules. It is part of the game. Just like wild pitches, passed balls, fielding errors, swings at pitches in the dirt, and taking pitches down the middle.

The protest process was put in place to give coaches some recourse. Our HS league here does not allow protests, either, but they do have coaches rate the umpires. Taking away the protest may be a reaction to abuse of the process or perhaps a manpower shortage in the state HS league offices so they are unable to deal with it. Shame, really. It does help make the system self-correcting.

Duly noted Tom....
 

....I appreciate what umps and refs do. I cover Junior College football and even at that level you get some horrendous calls. Part of the reason is that the referee pool gets dilluted because nobody wants the abuse. It's a tough job, and not many average citizens are up to the task. I personally commend everybody on these boards for sharing and learning. I tell my kids tht no matter how old you get, you should always try to learn more. The girls have already chalked up the loss as a life experience. Life isn't always fair and you have to fight on.

Found it .
My reply to does the run score was erroneous .
I was trying to answer two questions on 2 boards and got them mixed up .
No the run does not score .
My thousand apologies and gee did I get dumped on and so I should have .
At least you know I am not a woman now .
I cant do more than one thing at a time .