I was calling a 12U rec. game last night. Had a runner on 1st. The ball was hit torward the 2nd baseman. The 1st baseman came over and got the ball and rushed over and dove glove first torward 1st base. The play was going to very close. At the exact moment everything came together for some unknown reason the 2nd baseman stepped directly between me and the play. I could't see the play so I called "SAFE". My thinking was I didn't see the out made so I couldn't call an out. I can't call what I didn't see. Of course I didn't really see the "Safe" either.

Did I make the right call?

If so, and the defensive coach had ask me to ask for help, should I ask for help? This is really not an Appeal type play or is it?

Of course if I do ask for help and the batter runner was clearly out and we change the call the Offensive coach is going to go into orbit.

Just a guestion for some you Blues with more experience than me.

Thanks In Advance

[Edited by CoachBlue on Apr 14th, 2005 at 02:22 PM]

As a fellow rookie, I'm calling Co-Ed (D and DD divs). I don't know what would happen to you in higher divs, but in the games I'm calling there would be nothing wrong with you calling your PU over to see if he was able to see the play. In fact, if your PU was doing his job, he would be in a good position to call 'pulled foot/missed tag' etc, at 1st.

If he can't help you, then yes, I guess you made the right call, as you saw it (or didn't see it in this case).

Depends on whether you were confident your partner could have helped. After all, he had a runner to worry about at the other side of the diamond. If you felt s/he was in no position to make the call, yes.

Quote:

If so, and the defensive coach had ask me to ask for help, should I ask for help? This is really not an Appeal type play or is it?

Yes. At least get together and see what your partner may have to offer. If you believe it is enough to change your call, do it.

Quote:

Of course if I do ask for help and the batter runner was clearly out and we change the call the Offensive coach is going to go into orbit.

Just as long as s/he files a flight plan! :)

You make an effort to get the call correct. If it were reversed, s/he'd be thanking you.

OOps, sorry I forgot you had R1 @ 1st and your PU was busy too.

Pffft, rookies. :D

[Edited by Alameda on Apr 14th, 2005 at 02:44 PM]

Talk to your partner, AWAY from players and coaches. "Did you see the play?" "What did you see"?

Bob

Good job, never guess an out. Yes, talk to you partner away from everyone and if he saw the out it is your call to change and only you should change it. I am sure if he didn't see the play he would tell you he didn't see it. Somebody is going to be upset, it shouldn't matter to you which one.

Like everyone else, make the safe call and if asked properly by the defensive coach, talk to your partner. If they can help you out, take the input and make the call then. Soundls like you handled it properly, no matter at what level you were calling. You always want to try to get it right.

If you have a partner, and realize that you are blocked from the play, point to that partner BEFORE you make the call. Try not to make a call, confer, and then change the call. It makes you look bad.
In your pregame, talk about this situation and come to an agreement on how it is to be answered.

I had a similar play happen to me
 

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B. A pop fly hit to shallow center. The center fielder was playing shallow so the runners were holding because it looked like the ball was going to be caught. The center fielder dropped the ball. The runners advance. I'm PU, by the way. I run up to get in position to make the call. I'm right down third base line about 5 feet from the bag. I know, I should have been more inside the diamond but I wasnt. The throw pulls F5 off of the bag, he swipes at R1 as R1 rounds 3B. R1 is off of the bag and lunges back to the bag. F5 attempts a tag. It was at this point that F1, who had come over to back up the throw to 3b steps in my line of sight. I didn't see a tag on the second attempt. It all happened so fast, I had no time to adjust my angle. I did what I was trained to do. If you don't see an out, don't guess them out. So I called him safe. The defense appealed. Fortunately for me, my partner was experienced (more so than I) and had the angle. He saw the tag and I reversed my ruling.

In the situation you mentioned I would have done the same. It's your call to make and you didn't see an out, so you have to call them safe. Then when the defense appeals, if they appeal, you go to your partner. If he didn't see it, stick with your call. If he did, and the runner was out, then reverse it. It the defense doesn't appeal, that's their fault. You call what you see and you didn't see an out. So they were safe.

I'm not a pointer
 

Oh this type of play, IMHO, you shouldn't point to your partner.

Again, IMHO, you call the runner safe...coach appeals ("How the !@#$ can you miss that" may not be a proper appeal)...go to your partner, get information, then make the proper call.

Now...on a pulled foot I will point.

Had a young man up here on a recent weekend. His momma told me she thinks he is the greatest umpire in the world, which is ok for a momma to love her son unconditionally, but she REALLY believed it.

Anyway...He was in "C" and had an obvious pulled foot at first. Of course had he moved inside even half a step, he might have had a little better angle. Offensive team, the tournament director and everyone else went berserk. So he hollers from his position to his partner:

"Hey, Blue, whattaya got?"

And, of course, we had a safe...and a butt chewin after the game.

He was supposed to do one more game that night, and 3 the next day. Fortunately he "felt sick" and has not been back since...

So...be sure and go to your partner in a proper way...and if you do need to confer, do it professionally away from everyone else.

With a runner on one the PU is still in position to help .
The PU takes off up the 1st base line to check just for this sort of thing then button hooks over to the holding bay and if necessary moves up to third to take the call .
After all that you can ask you partner and personally I feel you can be open .
"John I was obscured have you got a call on that one "
This leaves both team coaches in no doubt and they would be rather silly to come into the diamond after this .
Its our job to get it right .
You are a team not individuals .
Ask if you have to .
Its better to confer/ask than make a decision then change it .

Speaking of looking silly, what happens when "John" says, "I didn't see it"?

Or makes a call when others observed John watching something else? Not a lot of things worse than an umpire caught in a lie.

As much as we would all like to be sure there are two sets of eyes, it just doesn't always happen that way. Have a private talk with your partner. Obviously, there will still be no doubt in the coaches' minds that they have run out of options, but that will NOT keep them from entering the field to "discuss" the play.

You are right Irish it would be silly .
I suppose I answer in an ideal world where your partner is watching as he/she is supoosed to do .
I am still in favour of open short questions rather than whispered discussions as it does save time .
I suppose it has all to do with level of play level of umpires etc.
Yes you are right it has happened to me where my partner has said "ahhh I wasnt looking " and it is embarrasing .

You made the right call.........
 

Umm... You do realize this thread is almost 5 years old, right?

Yeah.....and your point?? Don't you ever leave conversations sitting around for half a decade and then suddenly feel the need to pick them up again??? :eek:

Old thread..........
 

If my wife is smart enough not to do that, we should do the same. ;)

But, my wife does do that whenever she gets PO'ed enough... :(

I consider myself VERY fortunate to have a wife who is willing to listen to my side of the story, and is very interested in understanding how a man thinks. She actually listens to what I have to say, and I extend her the same courtesy. :)

Dave...wake-up buddy, you're dreaming. :eek:

I have also heard there are some people who believe in the tooth fairy. :p :)

Of course, he didn't tell us she is a psychologist who specializes in mid-life crisis. :p :)

And it's a damn good dream! Let me stay in it! :D

Heck no! I have to work today, no sleeping in for you! :D

I'm working today, too!

Steve, can you please stop shouting?

He isn't shouting....he is just selling his post! :D

After much thought, I have decided that I want the loudest posts on here! :rolleyes: :D

I thought all schools had MLK off? You got gipped buddy!

Oh... I quit that job over a year ago. I'm no longer working for the schools (THANK GOD) ;)

Oh...geez...that makes more sense. In other news, did you hear about the Hindenburg?

Dude, I'm not THAT old...

No but evidently I'm that far behind on my current events. :D

Heck. We are at work today, but with no students. Records days, gotta love em!

My bad.............
 

OMG - I've created text monsters. Okay guys, in an effort to DEESCALATE the situation, I've toned it down.:)

Booker,
The problem wih this is that your partner has other responsibilities - AND MAY NOT BE LOOKING at your play Make the call that is your responsibility before you do anything else. If you are asked by a coach to check with your partner because of a pulled foot/dropped ball/something else along those lines - that's fine, ask your partner. If the coach wants you to check with your partner because they do not like your judement, tell them that's not something you are allowed to check on and we'll all just have to live with a judgement call.

Umm... Steve? Yesterday was the 2 year anniversary since Booker's last login. :)

But your advice is sound nonetheless.

Conferring with your partner............
 

booker - In LL, their mechanics show doing just that, however, not in ASA. I have to make a call, then, if I confer with my partner and the information he gives me leads me to believe my call was in error, I have no problem changing it. Bottom line: I want to get the call right. Changing a call from a "missed" one to a GOOD one will never make you look "bad."

Stevetheump:

Did you read the post that immediately preceded yours??? :)

Quick history lesson...........;)
 

Welpe - To help get you up-to-speed:
We won WWI, WWII and the first Gulf War.
Korea was a draw.
We lost Vietnam.
Gulf War II is still a toss-up.

I suspect there are a number of people who may dispute this.

But that's for another forum.

I suspect most people aware of it would whole-hearted agree with the assessment. For that many, quite a few would insist that the military wasn't allowed to win it.

That was the beginning of the, "we cannot offend anyone, must apologize for anything anyone may take offense to and, no matter what, everyone has more rights than those who lived and died for them" era in this country. Still stuck there.

But you are right, that is for another forum.;)

Allow me to rephrase.............
 

Militarily, we WON Vietnam.
POLITICALLY, we lost it (thank you Lyndon Baines Johnson).

There we go.

Let's get off that topic. :)

Well, we could branch out into giving Miranda rights to the underwear bomber, moving enemy combatants out of military courts in into civilian courts while keeping the US special forces in military courts and not granting them access to witnesses, ...

Would any of those topics be better?;)

I prefer talking about cookies on here.

You mean like the type that will pile up in the memory of that $600 phone or a nice almond-flavored macaroon?

Cookies...............
 

Ah.....my order of Girl Scout Thin Mints should be here shortly. I am hooked on them. :)

I'm referring to Samoas. Or Caramel Delites (depends on your locale).

Cookies............
 

NC - That's why they make Fords and Chevys. Whatever floats your boat.