LH batter with running drag bunt down 1B line. 5’4” – F4 covering 1B. High-level catcher has already exhibited strong and accurate arm. When F2 fields ball about 1’ from line, B-R is about 15’ from 1B, completely in fair territory. You are PU, right on the line with same view as catcher. Assume that the calls are the same for most organizations, but let’s use ASA interpretations. What is your call:

A – F2 attempts to finesse throw just missing B-R, but F4 cannot pick up path of ball quick enough to make a catch.

B – F2 tries to put ball over the top of B-R, but only succeeds in sending it over the top of F4.

C – F2 raises her arm to throw, but gives up and does not throw.

D – F2 makes a medium speed throw that hits B-R in the middle of the lower back. (In your mind the ball would not have reached 1B in flight due the low trajectory.)

E – F2 hesitates, steps to the left to find a clear throwing lane and guns the ball to F4, but too late.

WMB

I'll bite. BR out in all cases, However I think "C" is a grey area because it requires us to know what the catcher was thinking. I'm hoping that the catcher starts complaining which would help.

I'd also have to say "C" is iffy.

"A" is a possible no-call, 15' should give enough room to pick up the ball.

"D" catcher might get a warning (key--medium speed, low trajectory)

"B" and "E" are IMO definite INT.


BR out of LH box completley in fair territory though, I would be inclined to INT on all 'cept "D".

I have an out in all cases,
I know there has been a lot of discussion of wheher there has to be a throw of not but I FIRMLY believe there does not have to be a throw.

Besides, we get paid for outs.......not safes. hehe

How would this apply in a 'pickle' sitch, if fielder decides not to throw for the same reason as above?

I a pickle situation, the BR is not restricted to a certain area as she is in the running land situation. Interference would require intent in any of the above situations if there was no running lane (or if BR was IN the lane).

I have an out on all but C. If BR is 15 feet away from the bag, there's no reason for F2 not to throw the ball. I don't believe a throw is ALWAYS necessary for interference to occur, but I don't buy it in this situation.

There's also a lot of discussion on these kinds of situations with "quality throw."

The running lane violation is a special case of interference. Speaking ASA, it specifically requires interference "with the fielder taking the throw at first base".

WMB didn't mention if there was a double base, if so, with the play developing as stated, I would expect that F4 would be taking the orange base, expecting F2 to step into foul territory to make the throw.

Nonetheless, ...

A – F2 attempts to finesse throw just missing B-R, but F4 cannot pick up path of ball quick enough to make a catch.

BR out. Interference with F4 attempting to take the throw.

B – F2 tries to put ball over the top of B-R, but only succeeds in sending it over the top of F4.

Possible BR out, unless the throw is just too horrible. If it is a "quality lob" - ;) - then BR out.

C – F2 raises her arm to throw, but gives up and does not throw.

Nothing. Being out of the running lane may have interfered with F2, but not F4.

D – F2 makes a medium speed throw that hits B-R in the middle of the lower back. (In your mind the ball would not have reached 1B in flight due the low trajectory.)

Doesn't have to reach in flight. Fielders can handle first bouncers (usually). If the throw had a shot at being successful except for the BR, then BR out.

E – F2 hesitates, steps to the left to find a clear throwing lane and guns the ball to F4, but too late.

I'd be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense here, but this one is HTBT for me.

If in the mind of the catcher her intended throw was prevented. Who are we to say that BR being 3/4 the way up the line can't possibly have caused interference. Especially if this was a 11-13 age bracket game ?

Earth to mcrowder, Earth to mcrowder... how can a BR possibly be in a pickle? What happens the moment she attempts to retreat to home? ;)

Guys.... remember the running lane violation (ASA 8-2-E) DOES NOT APPLY to interference with F2.

That would be under normal interference rules (8-2-F).

Can you possibly apply 8-2-F to situation "C"?

I don't see it.

Earth to mcrowder, Earth to mcrowder... how can a BR possibly be in a pickle? What happens the moment she attempts to retreat to home? ;) [/QUOTE]
I think we were all understanding there cant be a pickle between home and first.

A perfect example of why working the upper level games are easier. A good catcher isn't going to be doing anything, but pick up the ball, make whatever move is necessary to get a good look and gun the BR out.

They are not even going to think about where the BR is running and hope the umpire agrees, they're just going for the out the old fashion way. Would I call INT on any of the scenarios above? Probably, I'll know it when I see it.

Dakota - I was responding to our Right-Handed Starting Catcher. (I'm assuming that's what rhsc means!) He asked "How would this apply in a 'pickle' sitch, if fielder decides not to throw for the same reason as above?" I was saying it wouldn't apply, because a BR in a pickle would not have a running lane restriction (obviously ... because BR would not then be between home and 1st base).

Chuck - Dakota said it better than I, but running-lane interference doesn't have anything to do with the catcher's thoughts, opinions, or states-of-mind. Just ask yourself - did the runner, by being out of the lane, interfere with a fielder taking a throw at 1st base. So in C, there is no interference.

Interference on the BR. Dead ball with BR out!

Quote:

B – F2 tries to put ball over the top of B-R, but only succeeds in sending it over the top of F4.

Interference on the BR. Dead ball with BR out!

Quote:

C – F2 raises her arm to throw, but gives up and does not throw.

Hmmmm.....HTBT. From what I am getting here, I am likely to allow play to continue.

Quote:

D – F2 makes a medium speed throw that hits B-R in the middle of the lower back. (In your mind the ball would not have reached 1B in flight due the low trajectory.)

Another HTBT, but, quite possibly I would have interference on the BR, dead ball and BR out.

Quote:

E – F2 hesitates, steps to the left to find a clear throwing lane and guns the ball to F4, but too late.

Interference on the BR. Dead ball and BR out.

Hmmm.... I'm gonna have to use bigger smilies...

It was a wise-acre remark getting at a small technicality - once the BR reaches 1st, there is no longer a BR, but just an R! BRs only exist between home and 1st, where a pickle is not possible.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/se...smiley-043.gif

once the BR reaches 1st, there is no longer a BR, but just an R! BRs only exist between home and 1st


Ooops! B-R exists until the end of the play. Remember as BU you have the B-R all the way to 3rd!

WMB

Opps back atcha... ASA Rule 1 - Batter-RunnerIt was a wise crack. Let's not make a big deal out of it!
... End of hijack ...

HI-JACK
 

After lisening to all of this and being misunderstood about the pickle(based on the replies, I was); this no-thow possibly out (sitch C ) has me wondering about a no-throw in a pickle. If in C any of you might call INT, why wouldnt that be the same thing in a pickle?

Re: HI-JACK
 

It wouldn't be the same since there is no restriction on where a runner may run between any other 2 bases. Runners can do loops around the pitcher's circle if they want. To be called for INT in a pickle situation, the runner would have to do something intentional (e.g. waving arms) or interfere directly with a player.

Dang, why didnt I know this. Thats why Im here is guess. Better to learn it here than on the field.
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/b0/togo.gif[Automated by GetSmile]

Kinda why I said, in my initial response about the pickle, that intent is required for interference in a pickle.

Oh well.

:)

Game on! First games tonight, finally.

Yeah, sorry to divert attention from your point by being a wise guy!

I went back and re-read everything and then that made sense, too.
Wax on, wax off. Danielson..focus.

No, not technically. When a player is involved in a RUNDOWN, a retired runner may interfere with another play. It doesn't have to be intentional. Like I said, technically, but I just wanted to use the word rundown.

You want a damn pickle, go to a deli.

I can see Mikes perfect world ;-)
But why would most/all of you call interference here? Where is the interference with F3? There is a throw and that throw is cleanly caught. Where do you see interference on the fielder receiving the throw?
Or what am I missing?

Raoul

ISF
Firstly a high level catcher with an accurate arm will step and throw the BR out .
If they dont , well they aint high level .
We obviously have umpires judgement here but I wouldnt call dead ball interference in this scenario with the catcher except for D .
The runner shouldnt have been there and was hit by a thrown ball in fair territory .
Batter runner is out
When he runs outside the 3ft lane and in the umpires judgement interferes with
a) The fielder taking the throw at first or
b) The thrown ball preventing a fielder from making a play at first base

I bet some of you guys sell the hell out of your calls cuz I feel alot of pent up hostility. God save the sand-lot lingo. ('pickle', for the idiots)
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/aiw/dwarf.gif

This play must be seen. It can't be called from a verbal description, IMO. If the runner is out of the running lane, and the play on the runner at first is unsuccessful, I will give the benefit of the doubt (was it or was it not interference) to the defense. The runner's option to avoid this benefit of the doubt is simple - stay in the running lane!

If the catcher had a good play but just muffed it through hesitation, no call.

High level players will hardly ever have this situation. Both F4 and F2 will be moving to provide the throwing lane, especially if there is a double base at first.

You haven't quite caught on to the familiar ribbing that goes on here. It's not hostility (well, at least not most of the time).

B][/QUOTE]You haven't quite caught on to the familiar ribbing that goes on here. It's not hostility (well, at least not most of the time). [/B][/QUOTE]
Come on..that was a rib/dig in itself. Your just not used to my flavor. No harm, no foul, play ball.
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/k0/smashfreak.gif

Well, I've been playing ball since 1958. I've been involved with Little League, Kiwanis League, Babe Ruth, high school, semi-pro as either a player or umpire. Then I moved over to softball and have been involved at all levels, male, female and co-rec as either a player or umpire and NEVER heard the term "pickle" used to describe a rundown until I began visiting these boards.

I guess it all depends on where you are standing on this earth as to how "smart" you seem to be at any given time.

Maybe its a southern thing. Where I grew up, NC, thats all I ever heard it described as. Here in SC, where I live now, same thing.
Ive watched alot of pro baseball and hear the term used as frequent as there is a rundown.
Anyway, not trying to appear to be smarter, just sharing the luv of the game.

I've heard it called a pickle probably more often than I've heard it called a rundown.

PS - Can't find rundown in the book either... :)

Where about? I started life as a TarHeel. Durham to be exact.

POE - Obstruction.

Little place called Albemarle, east of Charlotte.
Now, a little place called Rock Hill, SC; hence, rhsc as username..for the detailed impaired.

Good catch, Dakota.

I guess we now have official confirmation that there's no such thing as a pickle unless you go to the concession stand. :o

I guess that means we gotta go to Wal-Mart for a 'mirror,' too, then. (from another thread)
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/j0/leseratte.gif

[Edited by rhsc on Mar 30th, 2005 at 03:42 PM]

Hey Pickle pokers!
 

To the topic at hand... perceived interference by BR going to 1st (where else can she go - right?).

I think a couple of you, quietly, gave the answer that I would give.

Some of you cast doubts about calling interference in situation D where the ball hits the BR but the umpire thinks that maybe, perhaps, possibly the throw would not have reached F4 in flight. (in time?) Well I'm sorry folks but scenario D is the only one for which I would definitely call interference.

Scenario D is the only one with actual evidence that the BR interfered. All the others are a guess... I wouldn't say judgement. I would definitely say guess. I'm not there to guess. Catcher, prove to me that the BR interfered or she is safe.

Scenario A - poor throw - bad placement.
Scenario B - again, poor throw.
Scenario C - no throw, poor choice.
Scenario D - flight has nothing to do with it. Scoop it out of the dirt. Ball hit BR. BR was not in a legal location. "Time. Dead ball. BR is out." Other runners return to last base touched at time of interference.
Scenario E - poor throw. How do I know it wasn't going to be too late on the first pump.

I'm thinking that you guys need to eat less pickles. ;)
Just funnin'

Re: Hey Pickle pokers!
 

Well, since your, uh, I mean yore, aw, heck - YER funnin' - that would be fewer pickles! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/Miscguy2.gif

Cali here.. Pickle is well used term and understood by all to mean a rundown. Real suprised at some whove been around the block saying they never heard that term.. almost unbelievable.

Merriam – Webster
Pickel: a difficult situation : Plight <could see no way out of the pickle I was in -- R. L. Stevenson>

The American Heritage ® Dictionary
Pickle: A disagreeable or troublesome situation; a plight
Baseball. A rundown

Roget's II: The New Thesaurus
A difficult, often embarrassing situation or condition:
box1, corner, deep water, difficulty, dilemma, Dutch, fix, hole, hot spot, hot water, jam, plight1, predicament, quagmire, scrape, soup, trouble.


Seems like most of these words aptly describe a runner hung up in no manÂ’s land; being chased to and fro, every twist and turn she confronts evil intent of getting rid of her.

WMB

Downtowntonybrown
It looks like you and me are the only ones to agree .

Regards
Dave Beaumont

J.H.C. I wasn't saying it wasn't a term to be used, I just said in my part of the world it isn't used as a description for a rundown in a softball game.

Hell, when a manager has no sub for the player that just injured themselves, they, too, are in a pickle.