R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B - less than 2 outs.

R3 takes off on the pitch and goes to 2B while F2 returns ball to F1.

We now have R2 on 2B with R1 also on 2B with the ball in the circle.

LBR not in effect because no runners are off a base. True or False?

The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?

ISF
False
R1 has no right to that base and therefore if the ball is pitched the R1 would be called out for not being on base

ISF Rules

If they both stay in contact with the base no LBR violation can be called.

If they don't play on the runners but F1 steps on the rubber, I call time and return R2 to 1B since we can not have 2 Runners on one base.
I don't see a reason here for calling an out if no runner is played out, but I have to get back to a situation were the game can continue.

Raoul

Two runners may not occupy the same base simultaneously
The runner who first legally occupied the base shall be entitled to it unless forced to advance .
The other runner may be put out by being touched by the ball .
Thus if not entitled to it is classed as off the base and will be out if the ball is pitched .
I would say though that the defense should play them out and if not after a short time yes kill the ball and return R1 to 1st .

Confused ? LBR ?
 

Your original statement states that R3 starts on 1B, your initial action has R3 going to 2B, but you final situation has R2 on second and also R1 which started at 3B. What's up with that ?

Taking the chance that this is a typo and you actually have R2 and R3 on second after the pitch has been delivered and returned to the pitcher I want to ask the question as to why I can't invoke the LBR ? R3 has no right to the base and therefore cannot stay. LBR states that the runner must make an immediate decision as to advance or return after the ball has been returned to the pitcher. Since advancement is not possible she would have to return to first. No immediate decision I have an OUT ! I am not in the habit of giving away OUT's ! Or protecting the offense for stupidity. PS after this I also no longer have the IFR possible.

You are right there is a typo. It is R2 and R3 that are on 2B simultaneously.

But you can't invoke LBR, because it is only valid if a runner is not in contact with a base.

To another poster, don't assume that the offense was stupid. By forcing a play out at 2B, this gives R1 an opportunity to score. Especially if R2 and R3 split on the play.

The correct ruling is that F1 MUST make a play to resolve the incorrect runner on 2B (R3), but if no play is made after a certain amount of time, you kill the play and return R3 to 1B.

Suppose the pitcher decides to not make an immediate
play. How long you going to wait before you resolve
the problem?

"How long you going to wait before you resolve
the problem?"

Same as you would anytime a runner is lolly gagging back to base. When the pitcher steps up to pitch, stop her and order runner back.

Of course you (as PU) better be watching R1 as the LBR is in effect for her. She better be moving back to, or be on 3B.

If R1 is back on 3B, and F1 is just watching both bases, and it is obvious that any play has come to an end, then kill the ball and send R1 back. The defense has lost their opportunity to get an out, and the offense has lost their opportunity to score.

Start Over!

WMB

Seems to me that ASA has this situation as a case book play. I'll look & verify that later today.

This is an offensive play. Killing it too quickly would penalize the offense. R3 is "in play" while she is standing on the base. Protected against the LBR, but definitley still in play.

If this play is executed by the offense, all hell will be breaking looose on the field. The pitcher just might be getting several verbal instructions from the bench as well as players. I would probably wait until it all settled down, and we knew for sure there would be no play. Might seem like an eternity, but chances are pitcher will get the ball over to 2B.

The offense might have tipped off the UIC that they had this play in their playbook, and not to be surprised if it happened and certainly make sure that the blues didn't call an out.

Oh yes I can.....
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tcannizzo
[B]

But you can't invoke LBR, because it is only valid if a runner is not in contact with a base.

I still claim that I certainly can envoke the LBR. I'll have to go get my rule book for some documentation but I'm backing this up 2 ways.....The runner from first has no legal right to second base so therefore she must return to first if she fails to do this within a VERY SHORT period of time and the pitcher has not freaked out and done something to indicate an attempt to make a play I'm calling time and getting an OUT. I'm also thinking of it this way. If you were to get a throw to second base and a defensive player were to tag the two runners (order would not matter) I'm going to have an out on the runner that should be at first. Again supporting the thought that the runner that has come from first has no legal claim to second base.

Just curious. What are you going to say to the defensive coach after you have called time and placed the runner back on first ? Because his/her first question is going to be why are helping the offensive team ?

I'm interested in what FED has to say about this.

I with you, a <b>DO-OVER</b>



[Edited by whiskers_ump on Mar 23rd, 2005 at 12:16 PM]

Re: Oh yes I can.....
 

Speaking ASA.

You are wrong unless the runner herself leaves the base to return to 1st without a play having been made by the pitcher.
Speaking ASA.

Steve M already gave you the answer. Case Play 8.8-66.

Damn Tom,

I had found it and was typing when a blip hit my screen.
Checked and it was you giving out the good information.

Well, guess I will go plow the garden...Sun is finally
shinning here. Three days straight. WOW

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If you(the official) wait too long, the B/R may split and possibly score; if you act too fast you dont give them a chance to make the out. Hmm.http://smilies.sofrayt.com/aiw/sclerosis.gif

What he was saying was that this was probably a set play, not a baserunning mistake. I've had it used in games that I was umpiring. The intent is to cause chaos in the defense and allow R1 to score.

You need to make a judgment as to when the "play" (such as it is) is over. This will be when it is clear the defense is not going to be snookered.

It is not so much a matter of allowing the right amount of time to pass as it is allowing the playing action to cease.

Agree..there just doesnt seem to be a way this wont be a bad call from one of the teams. That cant be a reason not to make the call, though.

Right 1/3 of the time ?
 

ASA Case Play 8.8-66 page 99 of the 2005-06 Case Book (yes you put the runner back).....NFHS Case Play 8.3.3 Situation B page 50 of the 2005 NFHS Softball Case Book..With R1 on third, R2 on second and R3 on first, R3 legally steals second but R2 does not advance. The pitcher receives the ball in the circle from the catcher and makes no play on any runner. May both runners remain at second? RULING : No. The umpire, after allowing a reasonable amount of time for a play to be made, shall declare the ball dead and call R3 out. College....haven't found that one yet.....I'd be interested to see what Kevin Ryan thought of this difference ?

"I'd be interested to see what Kevin Ryan thought of this difference?"

In this case, while he should dislike the difference, I just can't see any defense to calling the runner out. The LBR just doesn't apply to a runner staying in contact with a base, even if you think they aren't entitled to it. That same argument would make a LBR call required on a missed base or left too early without an appeal! Two runners on a base doesn't apply, since the rule states the remedy is to tag both runners (which the defense is refusing to do). The defense has remedies, which it has chosen to refuse, in fear a run might score during the play.

If the defensive coach wants an out, he/she needs to coach the team how to get that out, without giving up a run. You aren't helping the offense by returning the runner; you are following the only reasonable interpretation (as decided BEFORE it was first put in this year's casebook).

Maybe the question should be placed to Mary Struckoff how she justifies the FED ruling, instead?

Speaking ASA.

Steve M already gave you the answer. Case Play 8.8-66.
__________________
Tom

thanks, Tom. I knew I'd seen that as a case book play.

Now, for Fed ball - handle it the same way. This is not listed in last year's rules differences (trusting my memory again) and is not a rule change for this year, so - treat it the same.

How are these two connected ?
 

How do you connect LBR to "missed base" &/or "left too early" ? "Left too Early" on the pitch is not an appeal. It is a dead ball, call the runner out. When speaking about leaving on a fly ball or missing a base these actions happen only on a hit ball. How could you ever apply a LBR which happens inbetween pitchs?

Re: How are these two connected ?
 

Simple. Steve is responding to calling the runner out for not being on the right base. As Steve points out, if that is the reason for ruling the runner out via the LBR, would it not be true had a runner missed a base or left too soon? After all, those runners are not on the correct base either.

Re: Re: How are these two connected ?
 

You are like a bull-dozer clearing the way and makin it straight for all us newer guys..thanks.
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/1/950/ole.gif

LBR does apply
 

Here is food for thought....
R3 is not entitled to 2B. As a result of LBR, R1 and R2 committed to their respective entitled base. R3 is obligated to return to 1B in a reasonable time period. R3 is called out and play resumes.
R3 can not legally advance on the play as described and Rule 8.7T can be enforced.

Re: LBR does apply
 

Speaking ASA.

#1. Please show me in 8.7.T where is says the runner must be on THE base to which they are entitled.

#2. Rule 8.3 states that when two runners occupy the same base, the runner not entitled is out when touched with the ball. Therefore, to put the runner out, the defense must tag them off the base to which they ARE entitled. However, to do so, would constitute a play on the runner.

#3. Casebook 8.8.66 supports calling time and returning the runner to 1B.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B - less than 2 outs.

R3 takes off on the pitch and goes to 2B while F2 returns ball to F1.

We now have R2 on 2B with R3 also on 2B with the ball in the circle.

LBR not in effect because no runners are off a base. True or False?

The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?



8.7T(1) When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitchers plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

8.3B When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a suceeding runner.


In this instance, the B-R did not acquire the right to 2B. She could not steal 2B as it was occupied so she was obligated to return to 1B. 8.7T(2)does say that the runner must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base. The LBR is in effect since she off 1B. I may have used the term "entitled" incorrectly in this case. My apologies to all.

Can the R3 legally occupy 2B? She can't "occupy" 2B because she was not forced to vacate 1B. R2 is not "forced" to vacate 2B. Seems to me that if R3 does not make an "immediate" move to return to 1B then that runner can be called out.

How can I get a copy of the ASA casebook? I would like to read through it. What rules support calling time and returning R3 to 1B?

You can call ASA Proprties in OK City 73111 [1-800-654-8337]

glen

Of course, it is in effect. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Quote:

The only way to resolve this is for the defense to make a play at 2B and tag R1. True or False?

No, the defense has the option to make no play.

Quote:

8.7T(1) When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has control of the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitchers plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base. 8.3B When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a suceeding runner. In this instance, the B-R did not acquire the right to 2B.

Awfully hard for there to be a BR when the ball was not put into play.

Quote:

She could not steal 2B as it was occupied so she was obligated to return to 1B. 8.7T(2)does say that the runner must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base. The LBR is in effect since she off 1B. I may have used the term "entitled" incorrectly in this case. My apologies to all. Can the R3 legally occupy 2B? She can't "occupy" 2B because she was not forced to vacate 1B. R2 is not "forced" to vacate 2B. Seems to me that if R3 does not make an "immediate" move to return to 1B then that runner can be called out.

If R3 makes a move to return to 1B, then she would be out in accordance with the LBR.

Quote:

How can I get a copy of the ASA casebook? I would like to read through it. What rules support calling time and returning R3 to 1B?

See post above.

False. Read the conditions for the rule being in effect.False.Not true. She is in jeopardy of being put out, but she may choose to stay right there until the defense acts. I assume you meant 8.7T(1), but since you brought up (2), what does it say? It says <font color=blue>"Once the runner stops at <font size=4>a base for any reason</font></font> hmmm... says nothing about being eititled to the base. The whole LBR refers to the bases this way. If the runner is on <font size=4>a</font> base...
Rule citation, please?

As others have eloquently stated, the LBR is, of course, in affect, because the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not making a play. But, no runner can be declared out under the LBR while standing on a base! In fact, the exact opposite is true; if, after stopping on the base, the runner leaves for any reason, he/she is out. That means if he/she stays, they are SAFE. You cannot selectively infer a required entitlement to that base, or else, as I previously posted, you would be required to call a LBR violation after missed bases or leaving too early on a caught fly ball, etc. You cannot call an out based on 2 runners occupying the same base, as the defense has rejected the required remedy of tagging the runners.

So, HM1 Hammonds asks what rule can allow you to call time and return the runner to 1B. Let me put it back to you! You have 2 runners on 2B, and a runner on 3B. The ball is in the circle, in the possession of the pitcher. The pitcher and the defensive team are not making a play, and it is clear they will not. The offense will NOT step off the base, because, to do so, generates an out. You are the plate umpire, and, by rule, so far, cannot call an out. You also know, you cannot allow the batter to step in the box and the pitcher to pitch with 2 runners on 2B.

Forget for the moment your desire to call an out; that is not an option. What would/could you (HM1, or anyone else) do, other than the remedy stated by others, and as newly stated in the 2005 Case Book?

[Edited by AtlUmpSteve on Mar 28th, 2005 at 11:47 AM]

Actually, it is not that new. This case play is my 2003 Case Book. I haven't checked the earlier ones.

Look back rule can not be in effect, the runner at first that is actually at second, may in fact return to 1st with liability to be put out. They do not legaly have a right to second base, that belongs to the runner already standing on second. Therefore they must return to first, the look back rule is not to be used to stop a play in progress. If the runner attempts to return to first they are not to be considered in violation of the LBR. The umpire cannot allow a pitch because the play is not over. Not much of a situation here just let it play out.

Whoa, that sounds too much like your gonna give it to them. Everything Im hereing and trying to understand is(as you later said) let it play out. How long do you wait though, if your not supposed to allow a pitch? I need to know this, itll happen to me this weekend. Can you feel the panic?http://smilies.sofrayt.com/aiw/fie.gif

Let's not confuse the LBR being "in effect" with the LBR "stopping play."

Even though some 10U coaches like to think the LBR stops play, it doesn't.

Where in the lookback rule do you find these exceptions? If the ball is in the pitcher's possession in the circle and no play is made by the pitcher, the LBR is in affect, any runner who has stopped on a base cannot then leave without violating the rule. That is what the rules state as cited previously, so please cite some rules that support your statements.

No need to panic. Speaking ASA, the interpretation is clear. Once the pitcher has the ball in the circle, and in your judgment the defense is not going to make a play on the runner, call TIME and place the runner back on the base she belongs on (1B in this case). If the coach questions your ruling, sound like you know what you just did by saying, "Coach, ASA Case Play 8-8.66 addresses this same situation. I cannot allow a pitch to proceed with two runners on the same base. I cannot call the runner out since the defense declined to make a play. Therefore, I am suspending play and directing the runner back to her base."

As soon as it is clear that the defense will not make any further play, and that the offense will not leave 2B because doing so would violate the LBR, call time. The first time you see this, it may be 10, or 15, or even 20 seconds of inaction, as the parents stupidly scream at the players to do something. If the play is repeated, then you can assume in a shorter period of time that both teams won't make a further play, so no need to keep waiting.

The LBR is in effect, the pitcher is in the circle with control of the ball and is not making a play. LBR is in effect and if off base any runners must do something right now. But since no runners are off base and the pitcher is not making a play and is not going to you have a correctable situation so correct it and move on.

[/B][/QUOTE]No need to panic. Speaking ASA, the interpretation is clear. Once the pitcher has the ball in the circle, and in your judgment the defense is not going to make a play on the runner, call TIME and place the runner back on the base she belongs on (1B in this case). If the coach questions your ruling, sound like you know what you just did by saying, "Coach, ASA Case Play 8-8.66 addresses this same situation. I cannot allow a pitch to proceed with two runners on the same base. I cannot call the runner out since the defense declined to make a play. Therefore, I am suspending play and directing the runner back to her base." [/B][/QUOTE]
I dont know about the looking like what I just did, but the rest of it I can handle, as long as nobdy cares if I have a printed copy of this post.
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/aiw/clapping.gif

r3 cannot occupy 2nd base unless r2 gives up second by touching third. Therefore r3 is not entitled to second and must return to first. The play is not over until she does so, or r2 vacates second base, in which case r1 would have to vacate third base. As far as LBR, what is the intent of the rule, the intent is to keep runners from playing chicken with the pitcher and speed up play, that is clearly not what is happening here. I will agree if no one does anything just call time and fix it, but give everyone the opportunity to sort it out first. If the runner leaves second to go back to first, you cannot call her/him out on the LBR because she is trying to fulfill h/her obligation as a baserunner. If you get an argument from this one just use rule 10 section 1.

Yes you can (and should) call the runner out if she tries to return to 1B. Regardless of your "trying to fulfill her obligations" comment, which has no support in the rulebook, the runner is violating LBR the second she leaves 2nd base.

Im just glad I didnt respond when I was told fast-pitch is what you need to do. I aint ready for that yet.

Respond to what? You have 5 posts on this subject already. :D

Yeah, but I wasnt resposding to anything fast-pitch related. Its tough to sort out; reading all these different posts (ASA,IFS, and so on)and how they apply.
I just meant the guys here keep telling me that fast-pitch is 'where all the action is' and I dont think Im quite ready for it. Im sure you would agree.

Just the fact that you're here, and your name is not matrix is enough to tell me you're ready to at least BEGIN some fastpitch.

Everybody here says do a season of slow-pitch first. What do you think? Ive never even watched a fast-pitch game live.

I don't think slowpitch is necessarily or inherently EASIER than fastpitch. I just think you will be introduced to more situations in fast than you would in slow. The fact that you care enough to visit a site like this PROBABLY indicates that you are ready to try your hand at either one.

I do, however, believe it's easier to "hide" an umpire that doesn't care in a softball game.

But if you're an umpire that DOES care, you'll do fine in either, and probably learn faster in fastpitch.

Get into fast pitch
 

I know at least one member of ASA NUS who is also a PAC-10 bigwig who believes you become a better fastpitch umpire when you do slow pitch...but your desire is great. If you WANT to be a fast pitch umpire...and it looks like you do...then get into it!

I here the fast-pitch coaches know there stuff a little better and the slow-pitch coaches are a little more tolerant. Truth is, Im probaly tryin to save some face by agreeing with doin slow-pitch first.

Don't listen to these guys. Do what you want to do.

Working FP usually means you deal with children more than adults, though sometimes you have to wonder about that :)

To me, youth FP is a boring game, but in many areas, that is the only FP in town.

In SP, you will get more of a workout, more repititions and practice of your mechanics, face more challenging situations and will never get bored. Well, I shouldn't say that. You get a couple of pitchers that can barely hit the back-stop let alone the strike zone and it can get boring, quick. OTOH, this is the type of situation that tests your ingenuity and ability to adjust your game.

You will run into idiots in both games. The best way to keep control of the game is to work it well, hustle, and know what the hell you're talking about. I've been umpiring for 38 years, am a UIC, ISF and ASA Elite and I still get challenged by some EEE player who has never seen me before and that's fine. If I cannot dazzle him/her with my rules knowledge and professional appearance, they will be in awe of my technique of ejecting a player without anyone else knowing it!! ;)

Work what you want. I would suggest you do just one type of game the first year. Become comfortable with the rules and mechanics and take it from there.

I had this situation last season. Bases loaded, but R3 steals to second on the next pitch. R3 and R2 both stood there staring at each other ("what on earth are you doing here ??).

Anyway, as some others have said, I just stepped out and waited things to play out.

I can't see where calling time is a solution.

Just the fact that the PU is out from behind the plate, staring at second base was enough to get the message across that something had to happen. In only a few seconds almost all spectators, coaches and players were shouting out various instructions.

(Oddly enough, the pitcher through to F3 who only touched the base. The offense coach called to R3 "you're out!!".
All activity stopped and R3 trotted off from second and into the dugout, at which time I called her out. So, a weird situation all around.)

You say you can't see where calling TIME is an option. If pitcher has the ball in the circle, you can't just "stand there and let things play out". If runner leaves at that point, she's out. F1 does not HAVE to throw. You wait until it's obvious she's not GOING to throw, and you call TIME.