ASA 10-6-A

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I have also posted this at McGriff's......but thought the extra exposure couldn't hurt.

I am sure that some of you have seen the wars going on in the Baseball side of this board regarding the legality of an umpire changing (or going for help on) a judgement call.

As I understand it......and as I have always practiced.....any call I make on the field regarding judgement (NOT a rule misenterpretation) is FINAL.

We have all probably had coaches come out and ask for us to review a play with a partner......up until last year, I always told the coach who wanted me to get help....."c'mon coach.....it's a judgement call....they can't be changed".......

I ALWAYS got grumbling about that.........the main reason being.......there are TONS of umpires (many in my own association) that WILL in certain instances consult with their partner and in some cases.....reverse themselves.

Is this correct? My reading of the ASA book (and the NFHS book) says that it is not only incorrect.....but against the rules.

I am going to bring this situation up in our next meeting Wednesday evening.....but would like some input before I do......

I have archived an article (somewhere) I copied regarding how to deal with a coach coming out to ask for a ruling on a judgement call.........when I find it, I will post it after I get some comments.

Thanks in advance.

Joel

[oppool]

Joel

I'll gave you my 2 cents worth then sit back and listen to the vets but the only time on a judgement call I can think of that I would let my partner over-rule my call would be for some reason my vision was blocked or if for some reason I was not in the proper position to make the call.


Thanks


Don

[kchamp]

Please put yourself in the coaches shoes. I've been there as most of us have. An ump will make a call and be pretty sure of it, but he couldn't have seen the pulled foot or juggled ball from his angle. This can be very disconcerting for a coach to have no recourse to right a wrong.
As an umpire, if the coach appeals to the ump making the call, with a specific attribute (e.g. pulled foot) and as the umpire I realize that I'm not absolute and the other ump has a benificial angle, then and only then, I will ask the other ump for information. Note that I'm not giving him the call, only requesting specific information that may influence my call.
We have a form of this in the rule book for the check swing appeal. In OBR the check swing appeal can't be denied.
I also know some coaches try to appeal all calls and if one appeal works, then all calls will be challenged.

Just anouther perspective.
Kent

[Steve M]

Part of the problem with this comes from different organizations. For example, in college ball, if a coach "asks" me to check with my partner, the book sez that I "should" check - for all intents & purposes, it is really "must" check. In high school ball, it is recommended that I check, but not required. Most ASA coaches have ignored the part which speaks of "any doubt" on the umps part and expect that I will check with my partner whenever they "ask". In the Legion baseball that I sometimes work, don't ask - I will ignore the request if possible and toss the requestor if I can't ignore him. That's a judgement call and those calls are not subject to review. Now, more than 95% of the games I do are fastpitch softball of one level or another, so I admit that I will often go to my partner when "requested" (only if it's done in a civil manner), but... I will require that the coach tell me in specific terms what he thinks I did not see - pulled foot, swipe tag, whatever. I will then ask my partner that specific question - Did you see a pulled foot.
In actual practice, I have come to the conclusion over the past several years that it is far better for me to delay a call whenever possible - as in nothing else happening on the field - to ask "Partner, was there a swipe tag at 1B?" and then make my out/safe call after he responds to the very specific question.
I understand the thought that KC expresses about putting myself in the coach's shoes - what recourse do they have. No, I am not going to put myself there. We've got a difficult enough task in umpiring without trying to think like a coach or player or fan. That is a judgement call and I will make that call to the best of my ability. I work hard to have good and proper mechanics and to stay current on rules.
I'd like to see Mike's take on the list that Carl Childress posted of the 5 times it is proper to change a call - to see what the formal position is of ASA. I don't know that I have ever heard anything about this from ASA or NFHS and I don't like the NCAA requirement that I ask for help even after I've made a legitimate call just because a coach doesn't like it. But until I hear formally something different, I absolutely agree with the list of the only 5 times it is appropriate to change a call.
Am I going to blow calls? Not often, but you can be absolutely certain that I have blown calls before and will again in the future. That is part of the game. Live with it and let's play ball.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Kent........I agree with you from a coaches perspective that asking an umpire for help and having it granted is a bit of a rush.......for just a moment.....we (as coaches) got one over on the umpire........(I coached for 10 years......and am still assisting this year......Arggghhhhh......but that is another story).

But when does it stop? If I allow a coach to question my judgement call......are they going to come out on every call they don't like or don't agree with?

If I grant one request.......shouldn't I grant them all? After all.....my partner may have seen it differently.

I do not have a problem with a coach coming out to question a call........I do have a problem with a coach demanding that I go for help to my partner.

I thought that this was one of the SET IN STONE rules of umpiring.....

I agree with Steve that if there could have been a pulled foot or a swipe tag.......you can go to your partner and ask......"do you have a tag"? or "did she pull her foot"? But this is NOT something that has been taught at any of the ASA clinics I have attended.

I think the reasoning that it is not taught is if the PU in this situation was watching something else.......and they look at you with the "deer in the headlights look".........you wind up looking really super dumb.

Call what you see and don't call what you don't see.

I do like the 5 rules that has been published on the BB boards.........but I am afraid that the pulled foot or swipe tag would not work with ASA because we have not been trained to look for these situations.

Also.......Steve.......in the FED book, 10-1-4 reads almost identical to the ASA book......I do not see where it is suggested that we go for help when asked?

JMHO

Joel

[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Feb 19th, 2001 at 10:40 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA.

Joel,

The only thing 10-6-A does is forbid is a protest of a call based solely on an umpire's judgement.

As was demonstrated in the most recent Super Bowl, there is no perfect angle. Even with more than 33 cameras following the plays, there was still questions on some plays including a touchdown.

With just one set of eyes looking at a play, you do your best to get in the proper position to see "everything", but you cannot foresee every action or reaction the players involved are going to take.

You see the play, you make the call with commitment. If questioned, and it is possible that the play moved in a direction which may have cause you to miss something, your primary concern should be to get the play right. If you believed you had the play all the way, stay with your call. Do not be hard-headed about someone requesting you go for help, it is a good possibility they saw something you didn't.

An umpire will not lose credibility or respect if they go to their partner for help when appropriate. If anything, I've always gotten a positive response, even from the team that came out on the short end. You will often hear the team comment, "At least he asked for help and didn't just blow it off."

Unlike some of the baseball guys, we are human and cannot always be in the perfect position to make every call. The teams are paying you to see the play, make the call, interpret the rules and keep the playing field level. They are not paying us to demonstrate how big an ego we have on the field.

I believe there is more dignity in doing a job right than trying to prove that I am always right.

[SamNVa]

It is my personal belief that an umpire should not change a call based solely on his judgement ever.

Now let me qualify that.

Check swings are obvious cases where the BU can reverse the PUs call.

In the case of a pulled foot/swipe tag on the BR going into 1st, I think the BU should go to the PU for confirmation before making the call if the subject was discussed in the pregame meeting.

All other calls which are based on judgement alone cannot and should not be reversed, especially if they occur during on going action. This has everything to do with avoiding "what-if" games and nothing to do with umpires egos. If you blow a call during on-going action you are stuck with it since the call you make will normall effect subsequent action. The best you can do is to get in position for every play, focus on the play until the action is complete, and make the best call that you can; then live with it.

---

Finally for those who don't read the BB board, the five situations where a call can be changed are:

1. Two umpire make opposite calls on the same play.
   
2. Check swing.
   
3. An umpire misinterprets a rule.
   
4. A call of fair is changed to foul or a home run becomes a double (also vice versa).
   
5. A ball comes loose on a tag for an out, and another umpire sees it.
   

[IRISHMAFIA]

I think some are taking this way out of context. I am not suggesting that a call be changed because another umpire has a different opinion.

Judgement calls are made based on what an umpire sees. And that usually isn't the problem. Often, the problem is what the umpire doesn't see.

If you are going to your partner before you make a call, you're not going for help, but you are giving away the call.

Other than the obvious (check swing, pulled foot, etc), I am never going to holler across the field to my partner. I'm going to have a private conversation with him and compare notes. There may be something that the other umpire did see that you didn't.

There is nothing wrong with this method. Too many people are offended that someone is "changing their call." No one is changing anyone's call. A partner is merely offering another observation to a play and it is entirely up the the umpire whose assignment it was to make the correction or stand with his/her call.

Personally, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I will make a correction. I don't know what to say about those who won't purely out of principle.

I know more than a half-dozen umpires who refuse to work anything but a one-umpire game for the sole purpose of avoiding appeals. To me, that is not only unprofessional, but unfair to the teams playing the game.

JMHO,

[Roger Greene]

I'm with Sam on this one.

As far as asking a question on a pulled foot or swipe tag, thats not giving away the call. If I'm in C with runners and fielders crossing my line of sight, I may not have the angle to see the swipe tag near the bag, or the pulled foot on F3 streaching into the infield. I don't ask my partner to make the call, I just want to know if he could see something I couldn't. He answers me with a yes or no, and I make the call, out or safe.

As far as the coach's prespective, I've coached in ASA, USSSA, Pony and All American softball.(about 10 years) I've had all kinds of umpires, from umpires that stayed in B in fastpitch with a R3 and thought a batted ball hitting the plate was foul, to class AAA blues that looked like a drill team moving on and around the field.

The worst experiences I ever had were with umpires who would let a coach come out argueing that they needed to get help from their partners, and would then change their calls and attempt to replace runners and/or take runs off or add runs to the scoreboard. That was bad, even when I could get them to go my way!!! Its not good for the game. It doesn't have anything to do with egos.

Once you've rulled on a judgement call it should be final. Follow the list of 5 from eumpire. These are all immediate reversals, only one being done in live ball situation.

Of the hunderds of games I coached, I can only think of two cases where what I considered a bad call changed the outcome of the game. One cost me a game, and the other gave me the opportunity to win a game.(We did.)

Thats called averaging out.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[kchamp]

Mike

Your stance and mine are exactly the same. Your post came across clearer than mine. Ours is a more idealistic principle that comes before the rules were even written. Truth and fairness.

Kent

[Steve M]

Joel,
The part about honoring all requests with high school (Fed) ball wasn't really clear. Sorry 'bout that. Our district and state interpreters recommend that we go check whenever asked.
And we kind of are trained to be looking for a pulld foot/swipe tag when nobody is on 3B. On a hit, I'll yank my mask off and vacate the plate by circling aroun the right handed batter's box and then move up the first base line 20 feet or so - specifically watching for a tag or pulled foot. That's what has been taught here in Pa for - I can't remember how long.

[oppool]

Just another perspective on this from a young umpire(that's umpire years) is I believe the coaches and players seeing a umpire that is new or that they are not familiar with sometimes see what they can get away with so I do believe I have to be stern and my decision on a truly judgement call where I have done everything possible to make the correct call and those case where the coach is just arguing the runner beat the throw or vise versa or other true judgement call. I've also have had those cases where you just cant possibly see everything that is happening and have had a coach come out and argue and simply tell the coach I didnt see it cant make a call usally works most coaches will understand in most 2 umpire games there will be situation that arises where everything wont be seen the worst thing to do which I've seen other umpires do is try to make up something to cover their butt and usally it backfire on them. I do though on question calls after the inning go talk to my partner and ask him what he thought I think this usally will gave me a guage if I did just blow a call or was it just one of those plays where 50% will be happy and 50% wont which is the way it normally is on a close judgement call.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Ok........the consensus seems to be a bit undecided.....meaning of course there is no consensus.

I still think if you read 10-6-A:

"There will be no appeal on any decision of any umpire on the grounds that the umpire was not correct in the conclusion as to whether a batted ball was fair of foul, a runner safe or out, a pitched ball is a ball or a strike, or on any play involving accuracy of judgement. No decision rendered by any umpire will be reversed except when the umpire is convinced it is in violation of one of these rules."

I take this to mean that judgement calls are indeed final and no call by an umpire may be changed unless the call is in conflict with one of the playing rules.

I do not think that it is an ego problem to stick by a call once it has been made.......we all know that any umpire (no matter how inexperienced/experienced they are) can get into a play that they maybe did not have the best look.

Mike made mention of the touchdown in the latest Superbowl.....and how the play looked different from the many angles given by the cameras......but guess who was in the best position to make the call......the Line Judge (it could be a BJ or R who made it, I just used LJ for an example) who signaled touchdown.......if they did not have instant replay......that LJ could have asked everyone else on that crew (for THAT particular play).....and not a one of them could have given him any sort of opinion on what they saw based on angle the LJ had. He had the best angle......

As to the comment of gaining respect from coaches by trying to get the call right......I have always admired the good umpire who I know hustles to get the best position to make the call....and sticks by it.


One thought that also crossed my mind while typing this is that many of you do a higher level of ball than I typically call.

About 80% of the FP I call is in the youth leagues......I typically get assigned 14U and up but still have about 10-15% of my youth games be in the 12U and below.

I called 23 womens FP (good quality players and coaches) games this summer.......and of those games, I think I only had 1 coach that asked what I saw (close tag play at the plate)........he did not question it after the play but between innings......very nice and a good conversation. These coaches and players have been around enough to know that not every close call goes their way. Most accept that for the way it is and know that it usually evens out in the end.

Just an example here but in 25 youth games.......(lets say 10U).......you (both umpires) might get asked up to 50 times by a coach to go for help (if you don't call kid ball, that might be enough to scare you away...lol)........the younger the players and the less experienced the coaches are.......the more you see them coming out questioning calls. If you have 8U or even 6U coach pitch.....that number goes up. As you progress up the age groups.......that number continues to fall.

This is where I think it is a mistake to go for help when asked......if you did, they would expect it all the time and would really get bent when you don't......in kid FP I have had coaches tell me that I had to honor their appeal to go to my partner........

I know that those that disagree are not advocating going for help every time a coach questions you.....but I think that we can do a disservice by sometimes going for help and sometimes not.......

Steve mentioned that it NCAA it is expected you petition your partner when asked......to that, I ask this?

I bet at that level of play (NCAA), it does NOT happen with great frequency, even though the coach knows you have to get help. They know that you had the best look at the play and probably do not question your calls very often.

JMHO

Joel









[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Feb 20th, 2001 at 06:14 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

<>

Joel, my citing this was strictly to show that an "angle" can mean everything.

What happens when there is a play at the plate and you are in perfect position to see it. The ball gets there in plenty of time and the catcher blocks the plate as the runner slides into the tag. You don't ask to see the ball because it was boringly routine and ring the runner up. When the dust clears, you notice the pitcher standing about 10 feet away holding the ball and the offensive coach heading your way with bulging veins. He insists the ball came out and his runner is safe.

You are not going to ask your partner for help on this because you have already made a judgement call?

I hope the car is running in the parking lot! :-)

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I would first like to thank everyone for taking time to respond to this difficult (in my mind) question.

In Mikes play above.....this is one of the situations that has long been held by proffesional umpires as a situation that CAN be changed.

Sam printed them earlier and I will reprint again.

1. Two umpire make opposite calls on the same play.

2. Check swing.

3. An umpire misinterprets a rule.

4. A call of fair is changed to foul or a home run becomes a double (also vice versa).

5. A ball comes loose on a tag for an out, and another umpire sees it.

Now I know that this is not Proffesional BB, but ASA (and many other organizations I am sure) have done such a better job of explaining the rulebook than the original OBR.

I will also agree that it is everyones best interest to get the call right........but there should be some guidelines given to us to know when it is proper to go for help or not.

ASA has done such an excellent job in the POE section and casebook plays......but there is only 1-1/2 pages of casebook plays for rule 10.

Also......under 10-6......they should include language saying that it is ok to go to your partner under CERTAIN conditions. (I would think that they should not make it pertain to every time you were asked). Something along the lines of you know you were blocked out on a play....etc.

And to answer your quesion Mike.......I would go to my partner in this instance to ask what he saw........I would hope that my partner would however......come barreling in and holler for everyone to hear....... that the balls on the ground.......much as we would immediately call dead ball when we see a batted ball hit a batter in the batters box that the PU had no chance of seeing.

I also asked a question in my previous post........especially since Mike, Steve and Roger probably ONLY call higher level ball........you probably DON'T have your calls questioned nearly as often as umpires do in youth ball. If it holds true to what I see here.......in a 10U ballgame, you would expect to see it about 25 times more often than in a higher level game.

Joel