NFHS Ruling ? Foul Tip Or Is It ? Live or Dead ?

[Bandit]

Originally posted by Dakota
Boy, NFHS has sure screwed that up. All because of deleting "higher"???? They've managed to extrapolate a simple clarification into utter FUBAR! (JMO, of course.)

So is the supposedly "caught foul ball" (a newly invented entity) live or dead (which was Bandit's original question & I now understand his confusion)? How does the catcher make a play with a dead ball?

Did ASA join in this silliness?

And you thought that I was going crazy didn't you Mr Dakota ? And from my understanding No ASA did not join in this "silliness". I have not had a chance to compare the rulings but I understand that this ruling has been this way in college. True ? False ?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Bandit
And you thought that I was going crazy didn't you Mr Dakota ?

Well, to be honest, yes, I did! (BTW, while I appreciate the respect, the "Mr" is unnecessary - just plain Dakota or Tom will do - or even Ice or Iceblue if you frequent those other boards.)

For the further explanation given, it would appear that what NFHS intended to do was tighten significantly the definition of "directly".

It making judgments on a foul tip, I had already pretty much ignored the "higher" phrase since it so rarely came into the equation.

The standard I used was did the catcher make a play on the batted ball or not? (i.e. did the ball go to the glove or did the glove go to the ball).

The standard NFHS is putting into their interp is "perceptable arc."

Fine for a ball with an arc, but what about one that goes straight back (i.e. no arc) but comes off at an angle. F2 has to move to the ball. OUT in ASA. What about NFHS? Does the old standard still apply when there is no arc?

i.e. : (assume ball is caught by the catcher)

Perceptable arc?[list=A][*]YES - not a foul tip[*] NO - did the catcher make a play?[list=1][*]YES - not a foul tip[*]NO - a foul tip[/list=1][/list=A]
OR do they want

Perceptable arc?[list=a][*]YES - not a foul tip[*]NO - a foul tip.[/list=a]

[WestMichBlue]

"did the ball go to the glove or did the glove go to the ball)."

I am not sure that I can buy the argument that the catcher can execute a visible "play on the ball" on a 50 - 60+ mph pitch that is slightly deflected.

If the ball hits the glove, then the glove probably moved very slightly to the ball path. Maybe 16 YO reflexes are quick enough to get to the ball, but I don't believe that I would even see it. Ask yourself - when that ball deflects directly at your face - do you duck - or get hit? (If you can successfully duck, then why wear the mask?)

I have no problem that a ball can travel a straight line (NHFS word is "direct") from the bat to the glove, even if glove moved, and be called a foul tip.

For a FP catcher to make a perceptible movement to the ball, the ball must have been slowed significantly by the bat - and it probably no longer travels in a straight line. Thus "Arc." And thus foul fly (if caught) or foul ball (if uncaught).

I suspect that ASA will need to keep their definitions due the preponderance of SP play, which allows for catcher movement "to the ball." In that NFHS is primarily FP, their definition makes sense to me.

WMB

[Dakota]

Well, I didn't say "slightly."

I wear a mask not because I can't get out of the way (sometimes I probably could, sometime I surely couldn't, but then I'm not 16U!) but so I don't have to try and because I'm not into broken noses, eye-sockets, or skulls.

16U / 18U equivalent is the main focus of NFHS, no?

But, I was just wanting further clarification on this exerpt from the clarification letter posted from NFHS:

1. If the ball moves DIRECTLY to the catcher's glove/mitt or hands, ...

2. If the ball moves DIRECTLY to the catcher's equipment or person...

3. If there is any perceptible arc to the flight of the ball (it is not traveling directly to the catcher)...

This seems to define "not traveling directly" as "perceptable arc".

Simple question: is this how NFHS wants this called?

Or, is there still the possiblity (which I actually see sometimes with a good catcher) of a catcher making a play on a batted ball with no perceptable arc?

[Dakota]

BTW, with the clarification letter, the only FUBAR remaining is how local clinicians are teaching the change since clearly NFHS did not intend for a foul ball to magically come alive again if caught. Whew!

[Dakota]

Glen pointed out in another thread that the NFHS has their rules interps online now.

They help clarify this a lot.

Here are the interps that apply:

SITUATION 4: With a 3-2 count on the batter, she fouls the ball, which moves directly to the catcher’s shoulder, ricochets toward the third-base line and is caught by the pitcher. RULING: Dead ball, foul ball; the batter remains at bat. (2-25-1g)

This ruling is the same with or without the wording change.

SITUATION 5: With a 2-2 count on the batter, she fouls the ball and it goes sharply and directly to the catcher’s mitt and is caught by the catcher. RULING: Caught foul tip on a third strike; the batter is out and runners (if any) may advance at their own risk. (2-25-2)

Again, same as before.

SITUATION 6: R1 is on second base with one out. With a 1-0 count, B3 squares to bunt. B3 bunts the ball in the air just in front of home plate. F2 dives forward to make the catch. As the ball comes down, it hits F2’s helmet and ricochets to F3, who catches the ball in flight. RULING: B3 is out on the catch and the ball remains live. (2-20-1d; 2-20-2; 2-10-1; 8-2-3)

Again, same as before.

SITUATION 16: B1 fouls off a pitched ball with a 1-1 count. The ball (a) moves directly from the bat to the catcher's shin guard and then ricochets forward toward F5, who catches the ball in flight; (b) moves directly from the bat to the catcher's shoulder, caroms upward, and is then caught by the catcher; or (c) moves off the bat with a perceptible arc, bounces off the catcher's chest protector, caroms forward, and is then caught by the catcher. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball is foul and becomes dead at the time it came in contact with the catcher's equipment directly off the bat. In (c), since the ball traveled from the bat with a perceptible arc and was caught by the catcher, B1 is out on the caught foul ball and the ball remains live. (2-25-1g; 5-1-1d2; 2-10-1)

(a) and (b) are the same as before. In (c), NFHS makes it clear that if the batted ball has a perceptable arc, it cannot be a foul tip and it is a live ball still after hitting the catcher's equipment. At least that is how I read it.

BTW, I don't like their use of the term "caught foul ball" in this ruling. The ball was not foul to begin with (at least, not yet.)

[strike4]

As a second year umpire, I am still a little confused.

Count on batter is 1-1 in both cases below.

1. Ball goes directly from bat to mitt and catcher drops the ball to ground. a) foul ball, play is dead. b) foul ball, play is live. c) foul tip, play is live. d) foul tip, play is dead.

2. Ball goes directly from bat to mitt, glances off mitt, hits chest protector, and is caught. a) foul ball, play is dead, no out. b) foul ball, play is live, out. c) foul tip, play is live, out. d) foul tip, play is dead, no out.

Thanks for the help.

[Tex]

Strike4,

Keep in mind for a foul tip, the ball must go directly from bat to the mitt and be caught by the catcher. Anything else is a foul ball. Therefore 1A and 2 is none of you answers. 2 is a foul tip, play is live, out only on the third strike.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by strike4
Count on batter is 1-1 in both cases below.

1. Ball goes directly from bat to mitt and catcher drops the ball to ground. a) foul ball, play is dead. b) foul ball, play is live. c) foul tip, play is live. d) foul tip, play is dead.

Keep in mind a foul ball is always dead and a foul tip is always live - which eliminates b) and d). And, keep in mind a foul tip is always caught - which eliminates d).

Originally posted by strike4
2. Ball goes directly from bat to mitt, glances off mitt, hits chest protector, and is caught. a) foul ball, play is dead, no out. b) foul ball, play is live, out. c) foul tip, play is live, out. d) foul tip, play is dead, no out.

With reminders above, b) and d) are eliminated. Also, remember that if the batted ball goes directly to the hands, glove, or equipment, it cannot be caught for an out, eliminating c). It will be either a foul tip or a foul ball. The deciding factor between a) and foul tip in this situation is what was hit first - glove or hands - foul tip, live ball. If it had hit the equipment first - foul ball; a).

[Edited by Dakota on Jan 31st, 2005 at 01:35 PM]

[Dakota]

Maybe it would help to post a general summary of "what is a foul tip." Speaking newly changed and interpreted NFHS rules.

A foul tip must be ALL of the following (if it misses even one, it is not a foul tip):

1. A batted ball
2. Goes directly (no perceptable arc) to the catcher's hands or glove
3. Be caught by the catcher.

That's it. A foul tip is treated exactly the same as a swing and a miss. It is a strike on the batter and the ball is live.

[strike4]

Thanks Tex and Dakota both for the help.

The last sentence of Dakota's last post really cleared up my confusion. This new rule is going to cause a lot of discussions since it is being taught different ways across the country.

I'm sure I will be back soon for more answers.

Again thanks to you both for your help.