NFHS Ruling ? Foul Tip Or Is It ? Live or Dead ?

[Dakota]

Bandit,

Perhaps what has you thinking this way is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a foul ball is.

A foul ball is a dead ball. Always.

However, a fly ball over foul territory is not a foul ball. If it is caught, it is merely a caught fly ball, and a live ball.

When the rules define something as a foul ball, that ball is always dead.

[oppool]

I have seen a slide presentation made by NFHS that is now showing with the word change in rule 2-25-1g a ball deflecting off of the catcher chest protector then caught by the catcher being an out. Was told with the rule change of height being deleted this becomes an out

Case book 2005 2.25.1 situation B states that this play is a "foul ball" . I been told that this should of been deleted but was not.


If anyone can get a actual clearing on this from someone with NFHS it would be appreciated


Thanks

Don

[Dakota]

Originally posted by oppool
I have seen a slide presentation made by NFHS that is now showing with the word change in rule 2-25-1g a ball deflecting off of the catcher chest protector then caught by the catcher being an out. Was told with the rule change of height being deleted this becomes an out

Case book 2005 2.25.1 situation B states that this play is a "foul ball" . I been told that this should of been deleted but was not.


If anyone can get a actual clearing on this from someone with NFHS it would be appreciated


Thanks

Don

Anyone with the 2005 Rule Book? What is the definition of a foul ball? Has definition (g) been removed? The published rule changes do not say that is has, from which I was assuming that it has not. Merely removing the "not higher than..." phrase from that definition still leaves that as a foul ball.

[oppool]

2.1g now reads and is highlighted. " goes directly from the bat to any part of the catchers body or equipment and is caught by another FIELDER"

Which to me means if F3 catches it off the deflection you have a foul ball if F2 catches you have a OUT

I am also adding this out of case book play in part 1 comments on the rules going over the rule changes in reply to where a ball goes off of the catchers shin guard and is caught by F5. "The ball is foul and becomes dead at the time it came in contact with the catcher's equipment. Since it was not CAUGHT by the CATCHER, it is a foul ball. If the catcher had caught the ball following contact with the catcher's equipment it would be a CAUGHT foul ball.

Which I am reading correctly it would be an OUT.

Don

[Edited by oppool on Jan 25th, 2005 at 01:01 AM]

[Dakota]

Boy, NFHS has sure screwed that up. All because of deleting "higher"???? They've managed to extrapolate a simple clarification into utter FUBAR! (JMO, of course.)

So is the supposedly "caught foul ball" (a newly invented entity) live or dead (which was Bandit's original question & I now understand his confusion)? How does the catcher make a play with a dead ball?

Did ASA join in this silliness?

[FUBLUE]

The rule book and the case book are not written in the same manner as how the rule is to be interpreted. Is it possible that a new interpretation is going to be sent out? yep. Is it possible that an addendum to the rule book will be shipped? Yep. Is it possible that a lot of people are going to be confused? Yep.

I spent about 35 or 40 minutes last night discussing this rule at a HS officials association. They brought up several good questions. I've sent them to "the powers that be" and hope for a reply ASAP.

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit

With NFHS taking the height rule out of the equation would you agree that when a foul ball is hit off of the catchers gear and still controlled this should be an out ? Off of the umpires gear, no. I have been asked to think of it this way....from the past...if a player turned to bunt and fouled the ball straight up, over the batter head, and it came to be trapped between the catchers mitt and chest protector and she then demonstrated control of the ball with her mit or bare hand...didn't we have an out for a foul ball ? So if you take the height requirement out, shouldn't we have an out for the ball that knows go directly from the bat to the protector and is then caught ?

According to the information that we were given at the TASO State meeting, I believe that you are correct Bandit, and that this is in fact an editorial oversight on the part of NFHS.

[whiskers_ump]

"To Err Is Human, To Forgive - Highly Unlikely."


Hopefully both ASA and NFHS will send some changes.
See Mikes Post, 2005 ASA Rule Book.

[WestMichBlue]

In 2004 the NFHS said that a ball directly from the bat to the catcher's body, and then caught was a foul ball. Dead ball. A ball that went higher than the batters head and then hit the catcher's body and was caught was a caught foul fly and was an out.

I appears that, with the removal of of the words "higher than the head" that someone is now assuming that a ball going directly to the catcher is equal to a ball that goes up in the air, and thus is treated as a caught foul fly for an out.

I have asked for a clarification from my NFHS source and will let you know when I receive it.

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

An additional question about foul balls.

Another part of the foul ball definition (ASA and NFHS) say that a ball over foul territory that touches a player is a foul ball.

But what happens when a player mis-plays a foul fly and it bounces off her head - and is then caught. Out? Or is the ball dead the instant it hit her head?

Instead of the head, what if the ball is first touched by the glove, and lost, and caught before it touches the ground? Out or foul ball?

WMB

[Roger Greene]

In my opinion you guys are over thinking this.

If Fed still wants to call out the BR when first base is touched by a player with the ball, despite the fact that for the past 3 years there has been no rule to cover this call, I think that a batted ball that goes directly from the bat to the catchers body, not her hands, is simply a foul ball. Tell the coach that this is by tradition and custom, then let him protest. To do otherwise would be against truth, justice and the American way.

The WMB questions about the catch or foul ball would simply be covered by the definitions of a catch elsewhere.

Roger Greene

[DNTXUM P]

Scott:

You and I were at the same presentation at TASO state. It was explained that the reason the height requirement of over the head was taken out was for foul tip purposes. If a batter attempts to bunt a ball over her head and the catcher happens to be standing up and it goes straight to the catcher's glove, it is considered a foul tip, not a caught foul ball.

On the other hand if the catcher is squatting down and the batter attempts to bunt a ball in the normal stike zone (or lower/higher) and the ball is popped up and caught, it is an out. It is the umpires judgement as to foul tip or foul ball, regardless of whether the ball is higher than the batters head.

[DNTXUM P]

the following article just arrived via e-mail. I hope this clarifies what everyone is asking.

"Dear Softball Administrator,

There has been some confusion regarding a 2005 rules change. This message is being sent to clarify the misunderstanding and correct some of what has already been published.

CLARIFICATION:

The clarification involves rule 2-25-1g & 2-25-2 and what constitutes a foul ball/foul tip. Basically, to determine a call in this specific situation, the movement of the ball off the bat must be determined. The recent rules change no longer requires the umpire to make a judgment regarding how high the ball travels off the bat as it relates to the batter's head, but rather if the ball moves DIRECTLY to the catcher or has some perceptible arc.

1. If the ball moves DIRECTLY to the catcher's glove/mitt or hands, we have a foul tip, if caught (2-25-2) or a foul ball, if not caught (2-25-1d).

2. If the ball moves DIRECTLY to the catcher's equipment or person (any place other than the glove/mitt/hand) we have a dead ball and a foul (2-25-1d, 5-1-1d2).

3. If there is any perceptible arc to the flight of the ball (it is not traveling directly to the catcher) and it is caught in flight, the batter is out and the ball remains live. It doesn't matter if it hits the catcher's equipment, it doesn't matter if it's caught by the catcher or any other fielder and it doesn't matter if it stays below the height of the batter's head (recent rules change). If the ball is not caught and is touched in foul territory, it's merely a foul ball.

CORRECTION:

1. Slide #11 (transparency #4) of the NFHS Softball Rules Changes PowerPoint is incorrect. It depicts the ball traveling directly to the shoulder and the catcher making the catch for an out. I have attached a new slide to replace this old slide, which updates the text, and correctly states the ball is dead and a foul ball is called. Please be sure to replace with the correct slide and email this slide out to any of your interpreters.

2. Case Book play 2.25.1 SITUATION 2 on page 4 of the 2005 book is incorrect. The last sentence of the ruling should be deleted. I have also attached the new 2005 interpretations which indicate this correction and include a new play (Situation 16), which gives multiple scenarios pertaining to this rule.

I apologize for the confusion and hope this helps. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Mary

Mary Struckhoff
NFHS Assistant Director
Softball Rules Editor/National Interpreter"

[oppool]

Thanks for the info


Don

[whiskers_ump]

I too say thanks.

I have a coach's umpire meeting next Monday, will be useful.