Obstruction

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Whoooa - let's go back to the original situation. Nobody ever stated what to do with R1?

"R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, F2 attempts to pick R2 off. F3
Obstructs R2 diving back into 1B, tag is made before R2
can get to 1B. F3 immediately throws the ball
to F5 to try and get R1 attempting to advance to 3rd.
R1 is tagged out on the play."

I believe the correct mechanic, when R2 is tagged while short of the base, is to call Dead Ball and immediately turn to find R2. Then send R2 to a base using the 51/49 rule of thumb (more that half way, send to next base. Less than halfway, return to last base).

In the above scenario, if R2 was tagged out very quickly, then I assume that she was probably more than halfway to 3B when you killed the play. Am I correct in placing her at 3B? Or would you return her to 2B?

WMB

I am not aware of any 51/49 rule in any official softball rules (ASA, NCAA, or NFHS). In the event of a dead ball, runners are returned to the last base legally touched, unless 1) awarded a base, or 2) forced to advance due to an awarded base to a another runner. In your scenario (assuming I remember which R2 is actually R1), R1 must return to 2B.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve
I am not aware of any 51/49 rule in any official softball rules (ASA, NCAA, or NFHS).

Is "advanced over half way" sufficiently similar to "51/49"? See ASA POE 35 (2004), specifically the last paragraph just before the discussion of catcher's obstruction.

[greymule]

ASA and Fed differ significantly on this rule. In ASA, if F3 tags the runner going back to 1B but drops the ball, the play is still live and the runner from 2B can be put out. Apparently not so in Fed, where, as in OBR, the ball is dead as soon as an obstructed runner is played upon.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Whoooa - let's go back to the original situation. Nobody ever stated what to do with R1?

Though you are correct in the prescribed manner to handle that situation, we didn't need to resolve the issue. The question was "How many outs?"

The correct answer is none.

[whiskers_ump]

I just wanted to see if anyone would get tangled in the
'NEW' OBS
change.


None is true for the originial post.

[WestMichBlue]

Greymule: "Apparently not so in Fed, where, as in OBR, the ball is dead as soon as an obstructed runner is played upon."

Are you sure? NFHS rule is very explicit in that the ball stays live until an obstructed runner is put out. (Identical to ASA.) Fielder drops ball on tag - no out - no dead ball.

WMB

[WestMichBlue]

Irishmafia: we didn't need to resolve the issue."

Why not? There was a question asked.

"The question was "How many outs?"

Actually, there were three questions asked. The last one was, "Am I correct in placing her at 3B? Or would you return her to 2B?"

If there is no play on a non-obstructed runner, we don't know where to send her when we stop play by calling time (when the obstructed runner was tagged out). So we are advised by POE 35 to place the runner based on the "more than halfway/less than half way" rule of thumb. (Or simply put - 51/49!)

In the situation presented by this thread, the runner (R1) was put out at 3B. It is obvious that she was not going to make 3B regardless of where she was when the umpire called time.

IF she was more than half way to 3B when time was called, would you place her at 3B? Or return to 2B?

WMB

[Dakota]

When one of the engineers in the group I manage come to me with a complaint that both he and I know will accomplish nothing, I call it "recreational b*tching."

That's what this post is...

The problem with this thread is it was hijacked. Additional scenarios were posted in response to the original scenario. Hence, some people were answering the original question, some the modified scenarios, etc.

It's confusing without constantly going back and re-reading the posts.

We should stop hijacking threads.

But, we won't.

[Edited by Dakota on Jan 12th, 2005 at 12:22 AM]

[KJ'sDAD]

Guilty as charged.

New Year's resolution: "I'll try not highjack posts."

I don't think posts get highjacked intentionally, but as the human mind runs through all the possible "what if" scenarios we come up with more questions than answers.

Kevin

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Irishmafia: we didn't need to resolve the issue."

Why not? There was a question asked.

"The question was "How many outs?"

Actually, there were three questions asked. The last one was, "Am I correct in placing her at 3B? Or would you return her to 2B?"

No, the only question asked in the initial thread was "How many outs?"

If there is no play on a non-obstructed runner, we don't know where to send her when we stop play by calling time (when the obstructed runner was tagged out). So we are advised by POE 35 to place the runner based on the "more than halfway/less than half way" rule of thumb. (Or simply put - 51/49!)

In the situation presented by this thread, the runner (R1) was put out at 3B. It is obvious that she was not going to make 3B regardless of where she was when the umpire called time.

Which is completely irrelevant to the call.

Since you tend to read into given scenarios, what if R1 was running on the pitch and checked up when she hears the umpire call "dead ball"?

Of course, everyone is going to scream, "no way, the catcher would have thrown the ball to 3B?" How do you know that? Maybe the catcher believed she had a better shot at an out on R2 than R1. But, then again, when one decides to assume facts not in evidence (obviously, too much Law & Order on my TV), you can rule anyway you please as you can adjust the scenario to meet the outcome.

IF she was more than half way to 3B when time was called, would you place her at 3B? Or return to 2B?

WMB

As previously noted, in ASA, she would be placed at 3B.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by jstark23
Mccrowder, not anymore, Glen is right
straight from the fed rule book, page 62 Rule 8-4-3b1 Exception (1) when an obstructed runner after the obstruction, safely obtains or returns to the base she would have been awarded, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction and there is a subsequent play on a different runner, the obstructed runner is no longer protected between the bases where she was obstructed runner is no longer protected between the bases where she was obstructed and may be put out.

But the runner in this scenario DID NOT safely obtain or return to the base she would have been awarded (1st base). This runner, I believe, is still protected.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by mcrowder

But the runner in this scenario DID NOT safely obtain or return to the base she would have been awarded (1st base). This runner, I believe, is still protected.

mcrowder,

If you are speaking of this play that was added to the originial
question.

Now what if R2 is never tagged and never reaches 1st when returning (R1 dives in the dirt but comes up short, F3 dosn't apply the tag). R1 is put out trying to advance and R2 is subsequently put out trying to advance as well.

Which I think you are, then look at how it was presented.

R2 on 1st has been attempted to be put out by pickoff, she returns without
being tagged, nor touching 1B, [who cares if she did/did not touch at this
point]. In describing the dive back, KJ used R1, who is on 2B. Then
KJ said R1 is put out trying to advance, where I am sure he meant R2
out trying to advance to 3B, then R1 subsequently put out trying to
advance to 2B while defense is making the play on R2 at 3B. So
since there was no tag, ball still alive, subsequent play made on
different runner, obstructed runner no longer protected since she
reached the base you would have granted anyway.

Hell, now I am confused.

For the original post, mine, no outs occured on that play.

[mcrowder]

Good point - I was assuming he meant R2 (originally on 1st) was tagged out on the way to 2nd, which is why I was protecting her.

I thought the play went - OBS on R2 by F3; tag on R1 near 3rd; tag on R2 near 2nd. In this, I have R1 out near third, but R2 still protected between the bases. If, instead, this is R2 tagged near 2nd, and THEN R1 tagged near 1st, neither are out.

I was also referring to your mention that in your opinion, a runner obstructed at 1st base is only protected to 1st base. She's also protected between 1st and 2nd, but doesn't have to be awarded 2nd.

[Edited by mcrowder on Jan 12th, 2005 at 01:38 PM]

[Dakota]

Speaking of hijacking threads...

a) when an obstructed runner, after the obstruction, safely obtains the base they would have been awarded, in the umpireÂ’s judgment, had there been no obstruction and there is a subsequent play on a different runner, the obstructed runner is no longer protected between the bases where they were obstructed and may be put out,

Anyone care to make book on how long it will take to delete the phrase "and there is a subsequent play on a different runner" from this rule?

[greymule]

Greymule: "Apparently not so in Fed, where, as in OBR, the ball is dead as soon as an obstructed runner is played upon."

WMB: Are you sure? NFHS rule is very explicit in that the ball stays live until an obstructed runner is put out. (Identical to ASA.) Fielder drops ball on tag - no out - no dead ball.

You are right. I don't do Fed, and I misunderstood some of the postings. I guess the Fed/ASA difference is that in Fed a play on a subsequent runner removes the immunity from a previously obstructed runner who has made it to the base she would have reached. In an ASA caseplay, the immunity stays throughout the play. (However, the example deals with a ball thrown away, not a subsequent play on another runner.)