Ball Four?

[Leecedar]

By the way, is it an illegal pitch in ASA (including base award)? Because in HS, it's not an illegal pitch... it's a ball on the batter.

[JEL]

More thought fodder;


If F2's return to the pitcher sails wildly over her head, and is retrieved by F8, is this considered a direct return to the pitcher?

[WestMichBlue]

"By the way, is it an illegal pitch in ASA (including base award)? Because in HS, it's not an illegal pitch... it's a ball on the batter."

Good catch, Leecedar. IP in ASA, which creates the humorous situation of calling a delayed dead ball, supposedly to give the batter an opportunity to hit the IP. Apparently ASA tried to save text by lumping eight IP's sequentially and then providing a single penalty.

NFHS lists penalties after similiar IP's, so some are delayed dead ball, and some are immediate dead ball. And the one we are discussing is not an IP, but a delay of game call against the catcher.


"If F2's return to the pitcher sails wildly over her head, and is retrieved by F8, is this considered a direct return to the pitcher?"

Way to go, Jel! Screw up the pot a little. Let's take your line a little further. Suppose the return throw is wide of the pitcher and is caught by F4. Now are all the literalists going to penalize? Or will they recognize that the catcher made a mistake (bad throw)? What if the ball comes out of her hand on the throw and rolls onto the infield and F3 comes in and picks it up?

Suppose F2 throws to F5 with R1 on 2B. Is she delaying the game? Or making a play on R1? What if R1 has already started back towards 2B; would you still call that a play? Or call it a delay and issue a penalty?

Seems like you have to leave the rule book in your car and call the game with some common sense.

WMB

[Shmuelg]

Wow. I see I really opened a can of beans here. Kewl, I like beans.

The situation I gave was not in a game I umped or played, but it was in our league last year, between two very competitive teams.

I'll tell you what *I* would have done as PU: I would have called the strike, said nothing on the throw to third, and IF the offensive coach piped up (which he did), protesting the call, I would have called over *both* coaches, showed them the rule in the book, and call a *ball*, remove the strike, making a visible sigh in the process.

I don't see how you can call both a ball and a strike on a pitch. Too weird.

------------------------------------------------------
Personally, I think this rule should be changed. The defense received no advantage on this play, but are nevertheless penalized. Worried about a delay of game? Well then, you can institute a rule that the ball must be returned to the pitcher after each pitch that is not hit (excludes a foul ball, and foul tip) after, say, 5 seconds (10? 15? will take care of a wild pitch), otherwise a ball is called. The other exceptions would apply as well (DTS, 3rd strike, runners on base, etc.) That takes care of the delay, and so what if the catcher throws to third?
-------------------------------------------------------

As for substitutions, I agree with Tex here. I would not say anything, as it is the responsiblity of the defense to catch it. But I *would*, and have, mentioned to the coach to get back in his box. Not only that, but when I've seen a player with a cracked helmet, I called time, and had the player switch the helmet.

I had a game (I was PU) in which a batter ran to first, they tried to get him out, and the ball did not get there in time. BUT he used the white base, not the orange safety base. He should be out, but this is an appeal play, and the defense did not appeal. They didn't notice it. I told the batter later in the game that I saw it, and he was lucky they didn't appeal. Know what he said? "Yea, I know".

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Shmuelg
I'll tell you what *I* would have done as PU: I would have called the strike, said nothing on the throw to third, and IF the offensive coach piped up (which he did), protesting the call, I would have called over *both* coaches, showed them the rule in the book, and call a *ball*, remove the strike, making a visible sigh in the process.

I don't see how you can call both a ball and a strike on a pitch. Too weird.

Hmmm...you have a book on the field with you???

As for the strike, it would have to stand. It cannot be undone. The penalty, according to your original post, for not returning the ball directly to the pitcher was to have a ball called. So, you are calling the strike on the pitch, and the subsequent ball on the illegal action of the catcher and F5.

[Edited by Skahtboi on Nov 30th, 2004 at 02:52 PM]

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Skahtboi

Hmmm...you have a book on the field with you???

As for the strike, it would have to stand. It cannot be undone. The penalty, according to your original post, for not returning the ball directly to the pitcher was to have a ball called. So, you are calling the strike on the pitch, and the subsequent ball on the illegal action of the pitcher and F5.


[Edited by Skahtboi on Nov 30th, 2004 at 09:30 AM]

Maybe it was LL....They want you to carry you book. I always
wondered how many actually do when calling LL.

[Shmuelg]

Yes, I carry a book around. It's not that hard. Download the PDF, print it out in small print, exclude the index and the beginning parts about the "federation", and keep it in a plastic wrap in my back pocket. Coaches have a book, too.
"People of the book" indeed.

This is ISF rules, men's fastpitch. Players are anywhere from 16 to 60 y/o, and the league is in an independent (ie, not school) framework.

Are you sure about calling both a strike and a ball on that pitch? It just doesn't make sense to me.

As for the other questions about "what if the catcher overthrows to the pitcher", etc. It should be obvious to the PU what the catcher's intent is. This is a fundamental umpiring skill, or rather, art.

Shmuel

[whiskers_ump]

My last thoughts on this...

Look in the 2004 Case Book. PLAY 6F.7-2

[IRISHMAFIA]

This ASA and NFHS stuff is all fine and dandy, but we are not speaking of those sanctioning bodies, are we?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Shmuelg


Are you sure about calling both a strike and a ball on that pitch? It just doesn't make sense to me.

You are not calling a ball and a strike on the SAME pitch. The strike is a result of the pitch. The ball is a result of a violation of ISF Rule 7.5.g.

Two different events.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
This ASA and NFHS stuff is all fine and dandy, but we are not speaking of those sanctioning bodies, are we?

Hell,

I am not sure any more....It started out ISF....But most judge it the same way... In NFHS it is just not an IP.

[greymule]

I despise the rule in question. Count of 2 and 2. Batter checks swing on a ball in the dirt and starts running to 1B, thinking she might be called for the swing. PU calls ball but immediately points to BU for opinion. BU gives "safe" signal. As this is going on, F2 throws the ball to F3.

By rule, call is ball 3, then ball 4 on the throw to 1B.

As I say, I despise that rule.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by greymule
I despise the rule in question. Count of 2 and 2. Batter checks swing on a ball in the dirt and starts running to 1B, thinking she might be called for the swing. PU calls ball but immediately points to BU for opinion. BU gives "safe" signal. As this is going on, F2 throws the ball to F3.

By rule, call is ball 3, then ball 4 on the throw to 1B.

As I say, I despise that rule.

Greymule,

Not in the way you presented your situation.

To properly receive help from your partner, you should remove
your mask as you step out from behind the catcher and point to
your partner. To me, this kills are all actions. Time out, is
implied in this situation. Therefore catchers throw means nothing.

JMHO

[greymule]

Well, I didn't know that checking with your partner during a live ball automatically created a time out. To me, the faster you can resolve a checked swing the better, especially when the ball is still live and both runners and fielders need to know the call.

However, you can remove that from the situation. You still have a catcher operating in a fully legitimate belief that there's a play and being penalized for doing so.

I think of this rule as similar to the one for calling a strike on a batter who steps out of the box between pitches. It is a rule you don't invoke unless you have to, like calling a ball for an extra warmup pitch.

Three and two count. No one on. Batter swings at a low pitch and barely ticks the ball. The catcher scoops it after it hits the ground. The batter runs to first and the catcher throws to F3. Call ball 4 on the batter because the catcher threw a foul ball to a fielder other than the pitcher.

Three and two count. Batter pops a foul between F2 and F3. F2 dives but can't get it clean and scoops it. While lying on the ground, F2 flips the ball to F3, standing over her. Call ball 4 on the batter for the catcher's violation.

PS. I see that the ISF rule exempts the checked swing play, but apparntly not the foul ball plays. I can't remember offhand whether ASA is the same. I think it is.

[Edited by greymule on Dec 1st, 2004 at 04:03 PM]

[whiskers_ump]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by greymule
Well, I didn't know that checking with your partner during a live ball automatically created a time out. To me, the faster you can resolve a checked swing the better, especially when the ball is still live and both runners and fielders need to know the call.

Not to be aurgumentive here. Mechanics for asking for help on a
check swing or to "remove help, step from behind catcher, and ask partner,
"swing". Out in the open like that and no runners on, I got time.
If there are runners on, then the rule being discussed does not apply.

However, you can remove that from the situation. You still have a catcher operating in a fully legitimate belief that there's a play and being penalized for doing so.

With no runners on?

I think of this rule as similar to the one for calling a strike on a batter who steps out of the box between pitches. It is a rule you don't invoke unless you have to, like calling a ball for an extra warmup pitch.

If I have had to warn the batters a couple of times, then they getting the strike.
If extra warmups are thrown, then call it. Usually in the one minute time frame
between innings, you don't have to worry about this one.

Three and two count. No one on. Batter swings at a low pitch and barely ticks the ball. The catcher scoops it after it hits the ground. The batter runs to first and the catcher throws to F3. Call ball 4 on the batter because the catcher threw a foul ball to a fielder other than the pitcher.

This is a Case Book play 6F7-2 Bases are empty and B1 has a count of 0-1. On
the next pitch, B1 hits a foul ball that F2 retrieves and throws to F5. Ruling:
A ball is awarded to B1, resulting in a 1-2 count.

Three and two count. Batter pops a foul between F2 and F3. F2 dives but can't get it clean and scoops it. While lying on the ground, F2 flips the ball to F3, standing over her. Call ball 4 on the batter for the catcher's violation.

Could by utilizing the same Case Book Ruling.