Softball

[DanSummers]

What is the ruling in Federation for a unreported subsititue. Example unreported sub. gets a hit and is on 2nd base. The coach notifies the umpire before the next pitch. Unreported sub. is she out, ejected, or what. If there are no other subs to take unreported subs place then what.

[Steve M]

Dan,
You probably should have posted this to the softball section, but here's what the book sez. Last year there was no penalty - see last year's case book play 3.1.5a. That didn't sit too well with the rules committee - here you have an infraction being committed and the only response is "Oh, OK. She's in the game now so I'll just make note of that on my line-up card." This rule was changed. I think that NFHS has their rule changes online for you to check. The gist of it is that the first time this happens, there is a team warning given and the unreported sub stays in the game. For the second and any following unreported subs, the unreported sub is restricted to the bench for the rest of the game. I'm glad to see this change, I think it will help prevent any unreported subs.

[DanSummers]

Thanks Steve., but what happens after the 2nd time. The player is restricted to the bench who takes her place on 2nd base, if there are no more legal subs. Next time @ bat is there an out???????

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Dan......

I am kicking myself right now....because we had our COPE meeting on Wednesday night and this exact scenerio came up. I looked in my notebook and the sheet I took notes on was missing (all three daughters claim innocence.....but I will find the culprit...lol).

I believe that the answer was 1st time warning......2nd time, Out and disqualification.

If this puts the team short......then they will play short in the field and receive an out every time this position comes to bat.

I hope I did not butcher this one. I do not have the FED 2001 book in front of me, but the 2001 case book says that

NFHS casebook play3-1-7-b (this deals with an injury)

should a player be forced to leave the game, that team will not have to foreit. That team may continue playing. However, an out will be declared each time it is that player's turn at bat. Once a team plays with one less player, it may never resume playing the game with the number of players that started the game.

I will find out if this is correct in the next day or two and if I screwed it up....will print a seperate retraction.

Joel

[Steve M]

Dan,
Sorry, I did not notice that final part of your question. A team may play short-handed due to injury, they may not play short due to ejection, I don't know of a ruling, but am going to assume that a team may not play short-handed due to disqualification/restriction. I will check on this and report back - either right or wrong - when I find out.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

These scenerios are out of the 2001 casebook.

3-1-4 Situation D:

Illegal substitute S2 is discovered (a)while at bat or (b) upon reaching base, but before the next pitch.

RULING: In (a) and (b), S2 is declared out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. B2 loses her turn to bat. B3 is the next batter.

3-1-4 Situation E:

Illegal substitute S1, batting for B2 walks. The defensive team informs the umpire that S1 is an illegal substitute (a) before the next pitch or (b) after a pitch has been thrown.

RULING: In both (a) and (b), S1 is declared out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the duration of the game. B3, who is the proper batter, remains at bat.

From the 2000 rulebook......

4-3-1 allows a team to play with 8 players with an out being recorded in the missing players spot in the lineup. It does not mention playing short due to ejection.

Maybe Steve will have a more definitive answer on this one.

Joel

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Ok........found in the comments section of the 2001 casebook on unreported subs.

R1 is at third base. S1 bats for B2 without reporting to the umpire and gets a hit driving in R1. In the next inning the offended coach informs the umpire that S1 is an unreported substitute and issues the offending team a "team warning". Does all action stand? RULING: Yes, the first time an unreported substitute is detected in the game, the offending team is issued a "team warning," and all action on the play stands. The unreported substitute is now officially in the game.

Joel

This still does not clear up wheather in subsequent cases when the player is restricted to the bench.....when this causes a team to go short can they still play. I have a suspicion, that as Steve stated, you cannot continue short if the reason is that a player was removed due to ejection/disqualification.

[Roger Greene]

Guys,
Re: the unreproted sub.

The first offense for an unreported sub is a team warning.
The second offense by any member of the warned team would result in restriction to the bench.

This is found in 3-3-1l. 3-3-1k immediately preceeding is the helment removal clause, and the Penalty section covers subsections a through l.

This would leave me to beleive that if an unreported sub was removed from the box or a base, that no out would be recorded, and that another legal sub could take her place.

Are you sure you all are not looking at illegal subs in the case book instead of unreported sub?

I may be in error, and am heading to the case book at this time to check.

Roger Greene,
Member UT


PS Just checked case book on play 3.1.4Situation D. This is an illegal sub. Not an unreported sub. This play would not apply to the unreported sub if she would have been a legal sub.

[Edited by Roger Greene on Jan 21st, 2001 at 05:57 PM]

[Roger Greene]

Re: completing the game with less than 9 players.

See 4-3-3g. If a team falls to less than 8 players, for whatever reason, the game is forfeited. I can't think of any exceptions.

Roger Greene ,
Member UT

[Roger Greene]

I've checked the 2001 Fed rule book.

Ther is only one violation of rule 3-3-1 in which an offensive player is called out in addition to being ejected or restricted to to the bench. That violation is 3-3-1s, malicious contact. The specific penalty is found in the "Penalty" paragraph that covers subsections r,s and t.

In all other cases you only warn, eject or restrict. If a player is restricted or ejected for any violation except malicious contact, she may be replaced by a legal sub, and play is resumed without an out being called. If no legal substitute is available of an offensive player on base, I assume the last batter who had completed her turn at bat who is not on base could continue to run the bases untill scoring or being put out. At that point, the team would be "playing short". If no legal sub was available for a batter, then I would apply a BOO interpertation to complete the at bat, and proceed if the offending team still had 8 legal players.

The moral of the story is to be very careful of applying an illegal sub rule when we are talking about unreported subs. They are very different animinals, but very easy for people to confuse.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Steve M]

Roger,
I'm using last year's books - I won't get this year's for another month or so. But, I think the question has changed so that we now have a player restricted to the bench for being the second unreported sub and there are no other available subs who are elligible. If a team is now short-handed due to this, what happens? At least, this is the question I'm looking at now. I don't see anything in last year's books about this, so I'm checking with a Fed softball rules committee member that I know. Now Roger, you're as solid on the Fed book as just about anyone I've seen online. Do you know what this ruling would be? If I've changed what Dan's remaining question is, I'm sure he'll jump in and clarify.

[Edited by Steve M on Jan 22nd, 2001 at 12:32 PM]

[Steve M]

I got my answer and have to admit that I'm a bit surprised.
A team may complete a game with 8 players (not any fewer) regardless of why they are down to 8 players. So my earlier answer was wrong when I said a team was not allowed to continue short-handed when they were short due to an ejection. I'll bet $$ to donuts that at least 90% of my high school chapter does not know this, either. That'll change with our first meeting.

[Roger Greene]

Youve got it Steve. We only count players, not reasons.

Now the question we asked last year without a response from the state: (BB or SB) Fed rules. We have a bench clearing brawl. After the dust clears, the umpires compare notes. Everone who left their position or bench and advanced toward the fight is ejected. Both teams have less than 8 players after ejections are tallied.

How is the game ended? Both teams can't forfeit. We don't have a winner. Our association decided tht we were just going to take our checks and go home. Then the conference can rule on this one. How about you?

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Dakota]

Shorthanded means 8 players. 7 or fewer is a forfeit. How the team came to the point of having only 8 players is important, however.

If they are shorthanded due to an ejection, they may not continue. They forfeit.

Disqualification is not as serious as ejection, since it is usually a rules infraction, rather than a blatent act on the part of the player (e.g. unreported sub, rather than a flagrant act of unsportsmanlike conduct). For this reason, the team is not allowed to continue if they are short handed due to an ejected player.

[Roger Greene]

Dakota,
Where can I find that ruling or interpertation?

Thanks,
Roger Greene,
Member UT