OK, this goes out to all you Little League softball umpires (sorry Mike, LOL).

While watching some of tonite's LLSWS championship game between Texas and Virginia, I noticed that the manager of the defensive team was allowed to visit both pitcher and catcher at the mound. Is this something that is only allowed in the championship game? Little League Softball rule book states that the manager or coach may visit the pitcher at the foul line (catcher may be included in the visit with the pitcher). Visits to the mound only apply to Junior/Senior/Big League (Rule 8.06).

Or did the umpires forget this rule?

Serg

Ment to post this the other night.....But the PU in Tuesday nights game used Baseball Mechanics...You know "Pointing" to the side for all strikes. It looked really bad.

Rule changed this year for LL. Coach/manager may go out
to discussed the situation with players, so I was informed
this year when I did a couple of Sectional tournaments. It
was the only LL I called all year.

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Aug 19th, 2004 at 11:13 PM]

OK...another question about the pitcher. (Virginia) She had a little backswing then forward then came back again and started her pitch. I believe technicaly illegal, but would any of you umps call her on it.

OK, must have been a tournament change, because the rule book hasn't changed.

As for the Virginia pitcher, I really didn't notice an illegal pitch from her. But then again, I didn't watch much of the game. BTW, who won? (Had to get to bed early, some of us have to work early :) ) I was really impressed with the pitcher from Texas.

To Kellerumps
 

Whether you think (quote)"Pointing" to the side for all strikes. It looked really bad",(unquote) is bad or not, is not the point here.
It's just your opinion. Remember this is LL not ASA. It is quite acceptable to point for strike indication. You know, the first time I saw the "ASA fist" strike mechanic, I thought it was the stupidest thing I'd ever seen, and wondered why the umpire was calling the kid out after only one pitch (strike one).
It's just a matter of perception, and what you're used to to seeing. I could personally care less what kind of strike mechanic is used by an umpire. What matters to me, is if they're worth a crap or not..........

I believe Mr. Kellerumps feels pointing to the side "looks really bad" because it usually involves turning the head as well. Here's an example of what could happen if the PU turns the head and points.

1. Delayed steal by runner between first and second or second and third...run down...BU is hung out to dry by PU because he's busy dancing around "shooting the gun" behind the plate. (yes I know they use four person mechanics, so it wouldn't really matter in this game, but I'm sure PU doesn't just turn sideways and point when in four person mechanics)

2. Delayed steal of home, PU is doing his John Wayne, then close play at plate and he doesn' know what is going on. (Then again, from the LL umpires I've worked with, he wouldn't be in any type of position to see it anyway).

3. Assuming we have an oversensitive coach, he/she could construe the point (especially if eye contact is made) as taunting.

These may sound trivial and once-in-a-lifetime but they have all happened in games when I was BU for Little League, with Little League umpires.

At least around here, they don't do a lot of training of LL umpires.

One local guy worked LL softball world series last year, and to be honest, I wouldn't call a game with him unless I had to...very quick on calls, doesn't move much, acts like a dictator on the diamond, etc. Our HS association scheduler only works him on varsity games if on of (his words) "the elite umpires in the association" are working with him.

Just food for thought!

BTW, Mr. and Mrs. Kellerumps are excellent umpires. I've worked with hundreds and hundreds, maybe even thousands of umpires over my 12 years in this game, and I would place them in my top 5 of partners I'd work with any time, anywhere. BTW2, there are no LL umpires in my top 50.

I'm not defending the guy
 

I'm just saying that pointing to the side is not, in and of itself, such a deplorable action. From what I saw of John Wayne last night, he didn't prolong the point (look), so even if one of the plays you describe, had happened, I don't necessarily think he would've been in any worse shape than anybody else to fulfill his duties, and render a judgement on the play.
I actually took more exception to his penchant for calling (in my opinion) pretty low strikes, and he didn't even show real good consistency there.

I agree
 

What whiskers_ump said.
 

T'wasn't a tourney change.
The rule was in place all year, all levels.
Rule book wasn't edited, ... they print 'em early. But the change was officially noted for the regular season.

mick

Re: I agree
 

I'm sure they did attend a clinic recently, but if the quality is the same as around here, forget it. You'd learn more watching a wall umpire.

That being said, the better LL umpires in this area are ex-ASA umpires that do LL because daughters/sons played.

Re: What whiskers_ump said.
 

Thanks. Unfortunately, we are a local ASA association who work local little league games. The only thing we have to go on is the rule book. The local districts don't inform us of changes, like this. Guess I'm gonna have to start coming to you guys for "updated" changes next year. Not that I mind.
Serg

Re: Re: I agree
 

FUBLUE,
Again I concur.
At local clinic levels the bar is often set too low for aspiring umpires. We mass produce the wannabees and throw them on a field; maybe we watch, critique or partner with them for a coupla games.
We offer our phone numbers, E-dresses and rarely get contacted again.

At the local levels time constraints are often poorly managed. So, it seems, local clinicians are more concerned with "enough" umpires than they are with the quality of umpire, and who do we hold accountable, local clinicians, local leagues?

Most wannabees are not forced to go to umpire training. They show up to learn an avocation. They are initially trainable simply because they are there to learn. What we do with those trainees after their preliminary instruction is the critical path toward achievement. Do we initiate the contact, or wait for them to ask? Do we take the time out of busy schedules to volunteer advice, or do we let them sink, or swim, on their own? Do we tell them they're doing "great", or do we nitpick 'em with how to's.

Some good umpires just happen. Other umpires need to be prodded, encouraged, pushed into being all they can be.
Is it up to us? Is it someone else's problem?

'Tis a twisted web. ;)
mick

Re: Re: What whiskers_ump said.
 

http://www.littleleague.org/manuals/...ifications.pdf

Serg,
Here's the link they used this year. They usually put clarifications somewhere, but finding them can be a challenge.
mick

Almost all of the top Softball and baseball schools are now teaching the fist strike. You look at the MLB umps and the younger ones are calling just like ASA. Also they don't turn there heads on call strike 3. If you turn you head for anything during a live ball situation you are asking for trouble.

Excellent Point GCU
 

I've noticed a lot mor MLB umps using a true "slot" position. They look so crisp. Knowing some of the guys who do AAA and A ball for local teams, they say some of the best umps are the ones who use the "slot" position and "fist" strikes. No flash, but very consistent. Players have noticed this too.

Re: I'm not defending the guy
 

Well, IMO, it is. The reason I believe that is because you need to remember the purpose for hand signals. They are not for the umpire to put on a show, they are there to inform those out of ear shot of what the call is. Just like holding up an open palm to the pitcher, the umpire must do so in a fashion where the pitcher can see it.

A strike call is no different. A signal to the side is easily blocked by a LH batter or a catcher moving to the LHB box to return the ball to the pitcher. This is why I also have a problem with umpires going directly to a hammer in front of their bodies instead of to the side. Not everyone can see it and when looking directly in from 2B/CF, it gives the impression the PU is shaking a fist at someone.

Quote:

I actually took more exception to his penchant for calling (in my opinion) pretty low strikes, and he didn't even show real good consistency there.

Here's a shock, I've got an answer for that also. ;)

In all the LL play I've seen so far this year (baseball and softball), I've yet to see an umpire get their eye level down to the top of the strike zone. The guy last night only got down to the batter's eyes. Some umpires can adjust for being high, but not everyone can do that.

There is no reason an umpire cannot get to the top of the strike zone, even with small players. All one needs to do is spread, S P R E A D out those feet, get your hands off your knees and sit down. If you don't believe it can happen, go watch Steve M umpire sometime.

Mike, you and some very experienced ASA umpires may remember Tony Walsh, he taught Plate Mechanics at one of my first schools and gave the best reason for good mechanics.

He told us everyone on the 3B side was deaf and everyone on the 1B side was blind and it is our responsability to keep them informed of each pitch. If you say nothing on a Ball they know it is a ball. I knopw this has change now.

On a Strike while in the down position call Loudly STRIKE (or your own variation) now the people on the 1B side know the results of the pitch, Go to the up position and reach for the sky, and come to the "hammer" position at a right angle to your head and the people on the 3B side will also know the results of the pitch.

This is what I explain when rookies or newer upires ask why I do not use the "short hammer" the usual comment is "makes sense". But as has been pointed out to be politically correct and get good assignments, use the mechanics the UIC wants used.

Re: Re: I'm not defending the guy
 

Quote:

I actually took more exception to his penchant for calling (in my opinion) pretty low strikes, and he didn't even show real good consistency there. Here's a shock, I've got an answer for that also. ;) In all the LL play I've seen so far this year (baseball and softball), I've yet to see an umpire get their eye level down to the top of the strike zone. The guy last night only got down to the batter's eyes. Some umpires can adjust for being high, but not everyone can do that. There is no reason an umpire cannot get to the top of the strike zone, even with small players. All one needs to do is spread, S P R E A D out those feet, get your hands off your knees and sit down. If you don't believe it can happen, go watch Steve M umpire sometime.

Good Point Mike....Brian Smith from Michigan is another good example of a umpire who gets really really wide.

I agree with all the softball umpire, it's gotta be a hammer strike.

Got a different question on the LL game last night. When the batter was hit by the ball and the PU called it a foul ball, what did everyone think? I agreed with the call. On the replay, I thought the batter was touched by the ball just before the foot touched the ground outside the batter's box. But, the question I have, is did anyone notice on the replay that the 2nd base BU was signalling to the PU that it should be an out? Kinda awkward, I thought.

TexBlue,
I thought: <LI>it was close enough to call dead<LI>it was not clear the batter's right foot was lifted outa the box<LI>the second base umpire was calling dead ball with two hands up<LI>it was good that the batter struck out.
:)

However, I was confused by the umpire telling the defensive coach something about "a step-and-a-half". What was that?

mick

Yeah, I saw the 2 hands up at the 1st of the the replay. But, a few seconds later, he only had his right hand up, clenched and gave the motion, twice, which to me, looked like he was signalling she should have been out.

The step and a half thing, to me was his way of selling the call. The coach wasn't going to question it too hard on National TV, with a mike on. Probably some of that fabricated material that the coaches are usually throwing at us. http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...cutelaughA.gif

Oh, my!
 

TexBlue,
I will guarantee that when you have the dish and I'm in short centerfield, I will not be coming to you with an out signal to help you out. :eek:
mick

Re: Oh, my!
 

You and I will work great together, as I will never do that either.

An important thing to remember about LL Umpires is that they do it strictly for the kids,plain and simple.The "game fee" for all levels from league play to the world series remains the same,a hot dog and a soda.LL umps should be commended for their dedication to the kids.When my son played LL baseball a few years ago,I volunteered my time as an umpire.I eventually became the UIC for a 700+ kids program here in Reading,PA.I bought my own equipment,spent hours scheduling volunteer umpires,and even umpired in the District Tournament,still for the "game fee" of a soda and a hot dog.LL umpiring gave me my beginning to the advocation I now enjoy.LL umpires should be applauded for their dedication to the kids.I think they did a great job on the games I saw on TV.

Jeff
NCAA Umpire
NFHS Umpire
ASA Umpire

Regarding LL umpiring
 

It's a nice, pure thought, Jeff, but not all of us do it <U>just</U> for the kids.
Some games I work for the kids (<I>"Hey Mick we can't find an ump tonight, can you help us out!!??!"</I>), but for most of the diamond games I work, it is because I want to be out there.
I primarily use it for diversion and stress relief.
mick

Re: Regarding LL umpiring
 

And that, to put it simply, is probably the best explanation of why a lot of us are out there. I've always said I do it for the enjoyment of it. This may put a little better light on it. Uh, Mick, are you starting to get too introspective on us? http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/cwm/cwm/uhoh3.gif

Re: Re: Regarding LL umpiring
 

Not me, Rick.
I generally wear contacts.
mick

For the kids?
 

I like the sentimental thought about "doing it for the kids" but shouldn't we do the best job possible "for the kids." I mean, Billy Bob could go out there and call games "for the kids" and stink up the diamond. So then, is he really there "for the kids"? Further, I know several guys who have worked the LLWS, and trust me, their "game fee" is much more than a soda and a hot dog. One guy came home with over $500 in uniforms and equipment that was "give to them." To me, that's the same as a game fee.

But on another note, I just roled in home (6:20AM) from working a men's FP tournament. I left yesterday at 3:30AM. I worked 4 games. I drive 330 miles today. Why did I do it? For the barely three digit paycheck I got? Heck no. I did it because a fellow "blue" needed another umpire to work the tournament. He would do it for me, so I did it for him.

Tournament was average, but the umpire friendships last forever. I had a great time. (I had to remind myself of of that at 4:00 this morning as I had my eyes taped open so I would stay awake).

I love this game, and I love the friendships I have because of this game. That's why I do it.

Re: For the kids?
 

I don't believe anyone questions the dedication to the game of LL Umpires. Just because we talk about them is no big deal, we talk about all umpires in the same manner.

And, like it or not, FUBLUE has a point. If you go to a NC, it is not a far-fetched possibility that you will see someone who you know just does not belong there and I don't see why LL should be any different. A NC should not be a reward for quantity or loyalty, but for showing your willingness to work within the system, wear the proper equipment and follow the prescribed mechanics and rules of that particular organization whether it is ASA, NCAA, NSA, LL, BR, PONY, USSSA, AFA, FAST, ISA, ISC, etc.

OTOH, I also would not support enlisting umpires from other organizations just to get what the local UIC believes the best umpire. I've always been a believer that your umpires should come from within the sanctioning body.

That being said, a few observations from some games yesterday. In the Canadian-Latin American game, there was what softball people call obstruction on a third baseman and the umpire not only didn't call it, he made up a BS story when questioned by the coach. I don't believe it was even questionable that the runner was being waved on only to run into F5 standing in foul territory.

Other notes, PUs doing a lot of walking while making their calls and one umpire pointing to balls as well as strikes. I couldn't figure out what he was calling the pitch. Same umpire swinging his left arm on ball four directing the BR to 1B.

Other than that, most umpiring seemed to be pretty good. Some of the PUs are getting down closer to the top of the strike zone, but I don't think there is any lack of low strikes. OTOH, most batters are up there swinging the bat and that is a good thing.

Holy cow, Mike and I agree on something! :)

I too, support "helping those who help you" so long as YOU, the assignor, feels they are capable of doing the level of ball you are asking them to call. I know several guys who work in this state that call great games at 10U and 12U, or work excellently at Leagues, but I would feel nervous about them working 16U/18U or extremely competively "A" games.

I agree with a lot of the comments I have read on this topic. I don't want to pick on any certain organization (LL, USSSA etc.) I think there are good umpires out there and there are bad ones in all organizations, and it doesn't matter what rule code you are calling, you have to have the heart and will to learn. Read the book, go to clinics be a student of the game, not just runners and hitters study other umpires and see how they handle the situations you "worry" about when your on the field. That being said, I can only speak for my local area but ASA has the best means to learn and better yourself that I have found. When I started umpiring I started in LL, "Hey Dave we need an ump" no book no training just go out on the bases and call what you see. After that first game I demanded a rule book and read it cover to cover several times. Boy did that get me in trouble, thought I was going to have to call for backup when I called a runner safe that turned to his left after crossing 1st base!! "In my judgemenet the runners sole intent was to return to first base he is safe." Talk about some dumbfounded looks!! Anyway my son got out of baseball and the daughter got into softball, and so did I well the first year I called ASA is was like LL, got the book and read it, only it had a umpire section then the second year I got mailings with actual opportunities to go to clinics! I haven't missed one since, I try to get better and they yell at me to fix my screw ups!! I guess my point is it is hard to get better without someone else pointing to your weaknesses in a calm loving tone (JJ) and at least for me in my area ASA has the best opportunity to help young umps develop their game!

Now a couple of good stories, my 2nd year of LL guy I am partnered with is first year he chose plate, after making sure that he was sure he was ready we start the game. 2nd inning ball hit down 3rd base line (now the area where the base lines are is 12-16" wide and deep with grass on both sides) ball hits grass on foul side of line, he comes up with BIG FOUL ball call. Well you guessed it, it was stil rolling and ended up 4 inches fair when 3rd baseman picked it up! Oops! But again he was a dad out of the stands with no training available.

Second is fall ball last weekend DD playing, I am watching for the first time in 7 years, kind of weird. PU has baseball mechanics, pointing right at me on every strike (and I was looking him right in the eye!). A steal from 3rd on a dropped strike call caught him totally by surprise, didn't see her till she was 10 feet from home. Called even the swinging strikes in the same tone as his called 3rd, and the BEST of all called the game with no chest protector or shin guards!!! Took a HARD shot off the shoulder area, we had to wait for him to shake it off. Under my breath I said to my wife, that's why you buy plate gear. Another father from the team waiting to play, that knew this guy yelled "Now you know what to ask Santa for Christmas, a chest protector!"

Was either of these stories caused by being a LL ump? I don't know if you can blame it on LL, IMO it was from poor training and a "been there done that" type mentality. And again I think ASA works harder than any other organization to teach the basics and work to better their umpires. Again this is JMO, I don't have any experience with other bodies other than the local LL and FED. FED does put on Cert clinics in this state, guess who has been in charge of every clinic I have been to....... yep ASA officials!!

And FUBLUE, are you talking bad about me again?? For the record I am scary to work 10U too!

[Edited by DaveASA/FED on Aug 24th, 2004 at 03:41 PM]

Dave, you're scary working any level of ball, even 8U coach pitch.

Seriously, I'd work any day, any level with you. Now, Bandit, I'm no sure about.

Working with FUBLUE
 

From what I have seen and heard. I'd work with FUBLUE anywhere except in IL. Heard your quality level drops once you cross that state line. You don't have Farm Bureau Insurance do you ?

Re: Working with FUBLUE
 

I think my low quality was due to playing too much golf during the national week. How much did you guys in Bloomington, IN, play? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HA!

We worked....
 

We had a REAL UIC (and only 3 assistants with 3 different sites being used!, And I'm not sure but I think we had 118 teams and you had how many in IL....80 I think, how many assistant UIC's did you have?) in Bloomington. We had to work during our tournament ! From what I've heard our work during the week determined if we had a chance to work on Sunday. Our UIC didn't use some type "percentage" formula the week BEFORE the national to determine the umpires that worked the Sunday games !!!! Heck why not tell the umpires on Thursday or Friday they would or not be working on Sunday ? These national sites are complaining of the over-head cost of putting on these tournaments. Yours should have been able to save them some "motel cash" by sending the non-Sunday working umpires home on Saturday !

At a party, have you ever walked up to a group of 2 or 3 people in the middle of a conversation and wondered, "What the heck are they talking about?" :D

Re: Working with FUBLUE
 

FUBLUE, I've noticed that about the IL umpires. I worked 3 tournaments up thereabout 4 years ago and my partner and I (He was from Texas too) encouraged the coaches to come talk to us if they had any questions. They absolutely would not do it. We finally asked one of them why ( we had come to know his team fairly well) and he told us they weren't falling for that. They get thrown out if they do that. We asked the UIC of the tournament if they really did that and he said they absolutely would be ejected. Nobody was going to question their integrity on a field like that. My partner and I just looked at each other. I told him that wasn't what was happenig and if he felt so, he must have pretty thin skin and needed to upgrade his umpiring skills and call the game, not be the game. Needless to say, it didn't go over well. Of course, I was back at that tournament the next year and he and his other folks weren't. Please, please tell me this is a just an area of Il. that does this and not the whole state. I know the same thing happened in Salem and Marion that weekend. We were in Herrin.

Did I mention that Marion used a convict from the local Pen to be the base umpire in all the games? We were horrified to hear that. There was some agreement with the county to get the fields, if they allowed the convicts to do some community service. I think someone had to put them through a clinic and they were all petty criminals, they said. That was the worst collection of umpires I have ever been associated with (my partner and I being the exception.) When we left, several coaches from California, Pennsylvania, Arizona, etc told us they planned on coming back and hoped that we would too. "But, the other umpires don't need to be here!" We just told them thanks and left.

[Edited by TexBlue on Aug 25th, 2004 at 03:06 PM]

YES!

TexBlue,

It's kind of a long running thing several of us INDIANA umpires have with working in Illinois. I loved the tourney...had a lot of fun...tons of compliments on my abilities from fans. One California coach even said, "I can tell you are an Indiana umpire because you talk to your partner and you talk to us." What a compliment.

I'd gladly let you in a little bit if you want to e-mail. [email protected] (and then I'll send you the email address I really use).

Man, this is worse than teasing a coach with a delayed call on the game winning run! I've sent a messages to the address you gave me, 3 times and it came back every time as undeliverable.

hit this [email protected]