Illegal or not?

[DaveASA/FED]

Ok, I know we have been having a big discussion about illegal pitches and I don't want to start any trouble but I really would like to have some input on how others call this. We discussed what bringing the hands together is, but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Let me paint a quick picture:
Girl has ball in glove, puts hands together infront of body starts windup, steping backward, hands swing back then come together again in front of the body and then a normal pitch it really looked like a normal pitch that should have started with the ball in the hand not glove. These were FED rules so I am not worried about the step, but the bringing of the hands back together seemed like a double touch thus illegal.

From the angle I was at she was retouching little doubt in my mind. I was coaching, and wasn't worried about it as we were hitting well and winning the game but was asked to talk with the PU about it by other coaches. I knew the PU from umpiring and just casually said somethign to him about it. His response was that she was not actually retouching on the forward swing after she broke her hands originally.

So the real question: If I was umpiring and she wouldn't have taken the ball out of the glove on the pitching plate the first time, I would have been fine with the pitch as the ball was behind the glove on the swing in front of the body. So I ask you
#1 on the 1-10 seconds with the hands together do you look for a definant touch (and how the heck can you tell if the ball is behind the glove?)? Or is the glove behind the glove sufficient??
#2 If you agree that is is ok to constitute a legal pitch for the ball behind the glove then would you call an illegal pitch as I described with the no doubt seperation to start the pitch and then the questionable retouch (no question that the glove was blocking the ball from being viewed from the plate).

Again I could care less about the interp on the field last night but it got me thinking again about the discussion we had earlier this week in another thread. Thanks for the input in advance.

[SC Ump]

From your description in the first paragraph, I would consider it illegal. If the umpire you discussed it with saw it differently, I understand his call.

I am not sure I understand your third paragraph about the ball being behind the glove. If you mean touching the outside of the glove versus the pocket, it does not matter. The hands are still being brought together a second time. If the first time together, the ball remains in the glove and then the pitcher brings them together a second time to pull the ball out, that is still coming together twice and thus illegal.

If the glove is blocking the ball so that I can't see it for sure, then I can't call it.

[Dakota]

How I would call this would depend on what I saw and did not see.

Funny, but exactly the same motion could be a legal first touch and a nothing on a possible second touch.

Assume both times the pitcher brings the ball behind the glove but does not actually touch.

The first time, since I can't see daylight, I would count that as a touch.

The second time, since I can't actually see the touch, I cannot call a double touch.

Since I can't guess the violation, she could get away with either no touch at all or with a double touch.

Single man sucks for calling the IP. You need a partner on the bases to get this one right.

[SactoBlue]

ASA 6 1 E "The pitcher shall hold the ball in both hands for not less than one second and not more than 10 seconds before releasing it".

To me this means ball in glove. If you're holding the ball behind the glove your not holding it with both hands.

Also, I didn't see anything that says what a windup is in ASA. Just that it can't be two complete revolutions. If the start of the pitch is the first separation then the rest of it is the windup isn't it?

Don't know what other rule books say, just ASA and I'm
still learning that one.

Like I said "still learning". Read farther and "cannot use motion that brings hands back together"....Duh!

[Edited by SactoBlue on Jul 30th, 2004 at 02:26 PM]

[Dakota]

When I said "behind" I meant from my perspective of being "in front." I didn't mean necessarily touching the outside of the glove on the back.

Also note that what I was describing was a situation where it is not possible for the plate (and only) umpire to see exactly when and where they come together.

Since the rule is intended (in my view) to give the batter a visual of when the pitch starts, if it looks like they are coming together, it meets the purpose of the rule.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Dakota
How I would call this would depend on what I saw and did not see.

Funny, but exactly the same motion could be a legal first touch and a nothing on a possible second touch.

Assume both times the pitcher brings the ball behind the glove but does not actually touch.

The first time, since I can't see daylight, I would count that as a touch.

The second time, since I can't actually see the touch, I cannot call a double touch.

Since I can't guess the violation, she could get away with either no touch at all or with a double touch.

Single man sucks for calling the IP. You need a partner on the bases to get this one right.

I agree wholeheartedly with this answer. What I may do, however, is have a brief discussion with the pitcher, maybe at the start of the next inning after she has completed her warmup tosses.

"You are awful close to bringing your hands together twice durng your windup. You may want to watch that."

If she is doing it purposely, she now knows that she is being watched, if not, you can explaiun further if needed.