I am asking this question to see what you guys might say.

BR hits a ball to F6, BR running down the line, F6 throws the ball to F3. Now down here we have the doublebase at first. My question is now. Does the BR have to use the orange bag or can he use the white one instead. It is going to be a bang bang play at first. Now what do you call it.

1. BR touch white bag, F3 catch ball - out or safe

2. BR touch orange bag, F3 catch ball - safe

I just wanted to know what you guys think of this play.

Guys, I had already had the runner out, cause of F6 had an cannon of a arm.

buddha,

It depends on which rules body you're talking about. I think ASA treats it like a missed base that must be appealed, whereas Dixie treats it as an immediarw out.

SamC

Speaking ASA,

in this scenario...BR touches the WHITE base, F3 catches the ball, while on the white base...

Is the call safe and then, out, only if it is appealed before BR gets back to the bag?

Thanks,
Tchaap

Speaking ASA

Safe, but subject to a live ball appeal (missed base) ONLY and it must be made prior to the runner returning to the white portion of the bag

Quote:

2. BR touch orange bag, F3 catch ball - safe

This one is obvious

Quote:

Guys, I had already had the runner out, cause of F6 had an cannon of a arm.

Well, I certainly hope that F6's cannon got the ball to F3 prior to the BR reaching 1B. If not, I would love to be there when you tell the coach, "That's right, Coach. The SS has a cannon, so your runner has gotta be out." :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]Speaking ASA

Quote:

Safe, but subject to a live ball appeal (missed base) ONLY and it must be made prior to the runner returning to the white portion of the bag

Okay here, BR touch white bag before the catch. He just turned his body towards second only to run back to first.

Quote:

2. BR touch orange bag, F3 catch ball - safe

This one is obvious

Quote:

Guys, I had already had the runner out, cause of F6 had an cannon of a arm.

Course this is obivous. Had to throw that in.

Quote:

Well, I certainly hope that F6's cannon got the ball to F3 prior to the BR reaching 1B. If not, I would love to be there when you tell the coach, "That's right, Coach. The SS has a cannon, so your runner has gotta be out." :)

Your Funny Mike. I was just saying that the throw beat the BR before he step on the white portion of the bag.


And Sorry once again if I did not clarify if. ASA only.

[Edited by buddha69 on Jul 14th, 2004 at 11:01 AM]

1. BR touch white bag, F3 catch ball - out or safe
As far as I'm concerned, safe and BR has made an attempt to go to 2B, so may be tagged out. When I have explained it this way to coaches, you can watch the light go on - at least, for some of them.

2. BR touch orange bag, F3 catch ball - safe
Safe

Interesting explanation to the coaches, Steve. Unfortunately, the rules aren't written that way. They do NOT have to tag him, and he has NOT made an attempt for 2nd base. What an odd theory. F3 simply has to say appeal while still on the base before BR returns to 1st, and he's out (which is obviously NOT the case if he's trying for 2nd).

Interesting explanation to the coaches, Steve. Unfortunately, the rules aren't written that way. They do NOT have to tag him, and he has NOT made an attempt for 2nd base. What an odd theory. F3 simply has to say appeal while still on the base before BR returns to 1st, and he's out (which is obviously NOT the case if he's trying for 2nd).

You're right. But I can't seem to get the coaches to understand that.

Which is true as long as time has not been called. Remember, that is the routine in SP game.

Does F3 have to tag the base or the BR?

you guys are great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either would do, though if tagging the runner, it is obvious an appeal is being made. Just tagging the bag isn't going to mean diddly (and I ain't talkin' Bo) unless the defender verbalizes something that resembles a request for an appeal.

Mike,

yes it seems obvious that an appeal is being made, but not which one. Could be for trying to advance to second as well!
Does that matter to you or not? Is there a verbalization needed to identify which appeal is being made?

Besides that, I full agree with your rulings.

Raoul

Tagging a runner the defense believes to have attempted to advance to 2B is not an appeal. It is simply tagging a player they believe to be in jeopardy.

You'll know that it is an appeal because F3 is not going to do it without direction from a teammate or coach.

But in 8.7.H and EFFECT Section 7 F-I ist said to be an appeal.
I agree that if the bench screams to the fielder what to do and why, that I would not need any additional info.
But since the rules call for an appeal on the advancing a tag and "Appeal!" would not be enough.

Or why is it in the rules like that? I guess it is also a question of how far the try to advance went and how visible/obvious it was.

Raoul

One of the few times I disagree with the book, or actually the wording.

A runner being appealed for missing a base at first and not attempting to advance must be a live ball appeal and may be made by tagging the offending player or the base requesting the appeal.

A runner having turned and possibly continuing to 2B is in jeopardy of being tagged out simply for not being in touch with a base, and not necessarily for missing the base. A runner who misses the base and is legally returning to 1B can ONLY be retired through an appeal.

Mike - all of us have our pet rules that we disagree with. However, you, being recognized as the final authority on ASA rules on this board should not be expressing personal beliefs as factual.

When you said "Tagging a runner the defense believes to have attempted to advance to 2B is not an appeal. It is simply tagging a player they believe to be in jeopardy," you were wrong. It is an appeal, it must be live ball appeal, and it must be VERBAL ("she attempted to go to 2B, Blue") or we don't know what they are doing.

Later you come back and admit that you don't agree with the rules, but you still hold to your (wrong) opinion. What do you expect the rest of us to learn if you don't differientate between personal opinion and authoritative factual rules interpretations.

WMB




[Edited by WestMichBlue on Jul 15th, 2004 at 03:36 PM]

I was going to let this go, but I changed my mind.

A scenario was offered and then I was questioned about the verbal part of an appeal.

As far as I'm concerned, a runner which over-runs 1B and makes an attempt to go to 2B is nothing more than an active runner and if a defender tags him with the ball while off the base, there is no need for an appeal.

If I, as the umpire, do not believe the runner made an attempt toward 2B, then I'm going to look for an appeal at the base. If the fielder takes off after the runner, I'm going to considered that an expression of appeal. As I stated before, this is only going to happen if someone from the defense tells him the runner missed the base.

I am not going to watch F3 chase the runner down the line and tag him and then guess or have to ask "why did you do that" or have my partner kill the play if he sees me rule "safe" if F3 says, "I don't know" or "ah...er..because my coach said to?" thus depriving the defense of the proper appeal due to a misunderstanding.

The entire play is common sense and the reason the rule is worded that way in the book is because there had be a problem along the way with someone not being able to understand the entire concept of how to go about getting that out.

I have a good one:

R on 3rd...B draws a walk....and WITHOUT STOPPING[and with no play being made on her naturally...]continues on to 2nd,only using the white..do you count that as 'missing the orange',or do you treat it like a base hit..especially her INTENT was to go to 2nd all along-we have one HS program that does this almost ritually,and I was asked once by an opposing coach if the BR had touched the orange..My response was that no, since there was no play being made on her,the 'safety' base was unnecessary....he bought it at least!

This probably should have been a separate thread, but now that you asked, there is no requirement for a BR to touch the colored portion of a double-base unless there is a play being made on them by an infielder. No ifs, ands or buts, that is ALWAYS the answer.

Concerning the safety base:
The BR can always use both parts of the base. The only exeption to that is if a play is being made on her on first base, with the ball/throw not coming out of the firstbase foul territory.

At least that's in ISF. But I think the other codes treat it similar.

Raoul