Last night, game between two of the better 16U teams in the south metro.

No runners on. No outs. Batter hits a towering pop up over 1st base foul territory.

Batter assumes she's dead, but trots slowly toward 1st anyway.

Three fielders converge on the ball (F1, F2, and F3). None call it. The ball drops untouched among them and spins back into fair territory. F1 casually picks up the ball and heads toward the circle.

BR has crossed 1st while this is going on, and seeing she is not out with the catch, circles around, and starts trotting back toward home to resume her at-bat. Obviously, everyone is assuming foul.

Meanwhile, I'm standing a few feet up the line toward 1st with my arm pumping "FAIR." Nobody seems to notice.

Finally, both coaches shout "FAIR BALL...FAIR BALL..."

Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane). F1 throws to F4 who has run to cover first. Ball beats runner to the bag. No tag is made.

Call?

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 25th, 2004 at 02:47 PM]

Out. The BR reinstated the "force" at 1B when she proceeded toward home. (She is not out for stepping backward toward home, because she was not doing so to avoid or delay a tag.)

I agree as I am sure you did but I bet you had one heck of a time explaining it to the coaches :)

Tom,

Sounds like fun, and an out.

Not an out without a tag
 

In your sitch, you state the BR has crossed 1st and then heads back toward home.
This does not re introduce the force.
Once a runner has passed a base, that runner is considered to have touched the base until appealed.
If the defense didn't make an appeal (doesn't sound like it in this case) you don't have an out.

Am I misunderstanding something about your play description?

<b>This does not re introduce the force.</b>

Why not? If a runner passes 2B and then retreats back toward 1B, the force is reinstated. Same with any other base.

Ok, guys, I have been sick for the past couple of days and am not doing real well now.
Quote me the rule that supports this please.

I am not firing on all cylinders and for the life of me, I cannot remember a rule or casebook play that supports this.

Thanks,

Pass the tylenol and the robitussin.

Scott

Did she retouch first base on her way back to home? If not I don't see how she reinstated the force at first. I think she would have to be tagged just as if she had overrun a base. As I read your play she passed first base and circled around and returned towards home. If I circle around second and turn back to go to first I have not reinstated the force unless I retag second. Why would this be any different? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jun 25th, 2004 at 01:34 PM]

If the runner retreats in the the direction of the previous base, she reinstates the force whether she retouches a base or not.

This is in no way treated like a missed base. Whether she tagged the base or not is irrelevant. She is now considered not yet at the base.

Of course, there has to be a force to begin with.

Abel on 1B. Baker hits a line drive to right. Abel thinks it's a hit, so he takes off. The outfielder traps the ball. Abel rounds 2B and is a few steps toward 3B when the coach wrongly yells that the ball was caught. Abel (a) runs directly back to 1B, ignoring 2B, or (b) runs back to 2B but misses it and then retreats to 1B, or (c) retreats, tags 2B, and then goes toward 1B.

In all 3 cases Abel has reinstated the force. This is the same in OBR <b>because in all cases Baker is still a baserunner and the force is still on.</b>

These plays are entirely different when the runner is not forced.

I'll supply substantiation when I get home.

I stand corrected. In the definition of a force out it states if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base which the runner is forced. It doesn't say anything about having to retouch bases in reverse order. Thanks greymule! Did you call her out Dakota?

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jun 25th, 2004 at 02:44 PM]

"Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane). F1 throws to F4 who has run to cover first. Ball beats runner to the bag. No tag is made.

Call?"

Nothing to call.

BR is not retreating to a previous base because there is no previous base, she did not "occupy" home.

BR did not go to the dugout so no abandonment issue there.

BR did not attempt to advance to 2nd so no issue there.

You might, if you were really reaching get a delay of game for not returning promptly to 1st but the same could be said of the pitcher.

But, by definition, this is not a "force out". This player never occupied a base to which return and reinstate the force.

Why has anyone not asked if the pitcher made it back to within the circle with the ball when the player walked back past 1B?

I'll tell you my ruling a bit later (not saying I was right, but ...)

To answer a few of the questions...

The BR did touch first on her initial trot down, but did not touch on her way back.

She made no attempt toward second (she was thinking foul).

The pitcher did not make it back into the circle before the runner had started to head back, but was in the circle by the time she figured out what was happening.

The runner figured it out first and was already running back to first before the pitcher made a play.

Of course once again we acknowledge that the out at first is technically not a force out, and the BR does not meet the strict definition of a forced runner. However, it is virtually always treated as a force, and both rule and case book often refer to it as such.

I see no reason not to treat it like a force play in this case. Or, to please the purists, we can say that by returning toward home, BR has again placed herself in the position of having to reach 1B before a fielder with the ball touches the base.

BR gets a single, touches 1B, and then runs back toward home and stops in the baseline 6 feet from the plate. This is a tag play now?

Has ASA ever ruled on this?

Tom,
OK, going from 1st toward home resinstates the "force". I don't care that the B-R did not retouch 1B, tahat's an appeal & a can of worms that this question didn't open, so I won't either.

F1's throw to F4 beats the runner to the bag, I have an out.

I agree with Greymule & Roger Greene - who pointed this out several years ago, B-R being thrown out at 1B does not meet the definition of a force out.

Speaking Fed now (but ASA appears to at least not disagree), essentially (according to a buddy, who was a member of Fed's rules committee), it looks like a force, it acts like a force, we're not dealing with that.

I may sound confused but now that I have been educated again on the force play and in fact that there is no base to go back to. I guess I must ask the look back rule questions because it comes into play here after the runner has touched first and the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle. The pitcher did get to the circle with control but after the what is now a runner had already figured it out and was headed directly back to first. Now my thoughts are more inclined to say that there is no play because all we have is a runner after over running first returning to first. It was stated that she made no attempt to go to second, she had to have come back towards the infield and didn't go directly towards second, so she is committed to first but not until the pitcher is in the circle with control of the ball and at that time she was headed directly back to first. No play.

Eddie,

I think you got it!
BR hits fair ball, no play on BR at 1B so she can hit either bag, she touches the base and runs past it.
BR does not turn toward 2B.So she takes her time returning to 1B (White Bag) and can not be but our prior to touching 1B.
Look back rule can not be in effect until pitcher has control of the ball within the circle, without making a play on the runner and the runner either takes off for 2B or occupies 1B.
Runner is safe at 1B, Batter Up , Play Ball

Ok guys,
 

I am still waiting on some of you guys who say you have an out to come up with a case book ruling or rule that supports the position you have taken.

I don't agree, but then again,,,,,,,,I don't know for sure.
I do know that right now, I would rule safe as I said earlier.

Come on, this one is keeping me awake, along with the fever hacking wheezing and general cruddy feeling I have in my head right now. (as opposed to the usual cruddy feeling in my head.)

Scott

Does POE 36 take care of this? "an appeal out if tagged by a defensive player with the ball , while off base "

No, I don't think it applies since this POE is talking about a TAG.

Still don't know the answer but I am going to make an attempt to call Walt Sparks or Henry Pollard tomorrow to get a ruling.

Thats my point... NO TAG , safe at first. Brian

<b>Runner reverses and dashes back toward first (she's made it to about the beginning of the running lane).</b>

This information in the original post was key to me. It clearly places the runner in a position where she has retreated from 1B toward home.

In these other plays you guys are talking about, the runner has missed 1B and is past it, wandering in this direction or that. That situation would indeed require an appeal.

However, ASA does not require a tag for that appeal. As soon as a runner misses a base and is past it, a fielder with the ball can step on the base and appeal to the umpire, even if the runner is attempting to return to touch the missed base. (Of course OBR is totally different.)

The issue is whether, like a runner forced to 2B who retreats toward 1B and reinstates the force, a runner assumes the same liability by retreating from 1B (which is technically not a force but treated like one).

Not an out
 

I have spent some time reading though the book, and admittedly not closely but I have to stand with this not being an out.
There is nothing that allows for this to be an out as the "ORIGINAL" play describes.

I would be glad though, if you could show me a ruling that would support the idea that has been presented.
That way, some of my games might get finished a little sooner with some easy outs.

Scott

Me too. Time to tell us Tom. If you don't soon I will
get a friend of yours over to this board...:D

Excellent post. If this had happened when I was on the field, I'm sure I would have been stumped. But I hope only momentarily. Thanks to everyone's input, I hope I will be ready if it ever happens to me.

Now I will know to do the following:

1. Make sure I watch for the lookback rule violation.

2. Do exactly as Tom did and stand a few feet up the line toward 1st with my arm pumping fair.

3. Keep my mouth shut and let my partner on the bases call safe or out. :D

I still don't know if I called it correctly (which is why I posted the scenario). I discussed it this morning among some umpires at a tournament, and still am not sure.

If someone is able to get an official ruling from the NUS, that would be great.

As I was watching the final act of this play, the reinstating of the force did occur to me, but I decided against it (in the fleeting seconds). My ruling was safe, ruling that the runner made a long, elaborate, return to 1st after overrunning.

That ruling would have worked even with a tag, but my mind was so unsure of the call at the time, I can't honestly say what I would have called had there been a tag made.

I've been second-guessing ever since.

Arguing against the reinstatement of the force is the runner does on "occupy" home and also the fact that the path a runner follows after overrunning 1st is essentially unregulated so long as there is no try for 2nd.

I agree with you. Unless the BR went over 1st, touching it, then I don't think I'd call the force reinstated again, either. She's safe, let the defense come out and give me a rule saying different. Don't show it, just give it.

Tom,

I like the call.

Rick,

You had all this rain. Six straight days. Lost a tournament
in Lake Charles, La., this weekend. ASA State next weekend, but
it isn't looking too good.

I also agree with the safe call, but only because of the lack of regulation about overruns, not because it isn't reinstatement; although the effect is the same.

Even though this is technically not defined as a force, the batter-runner is obligated to advance to 1st; so same effect.

In NFHS, where we have the elaborate (and dumb) rule about what a BR can do after overrunning 1st, there is a requirement of returning directly to 1st in some cases. In those cases, I believe the force (sorry, obligation to advance) would be reinstated and this play would be an out. It also might depend on whether the base is touched on the return, but that is a separate issue.