Bases loaded, tie game, 7th inning, home team at bat with 2 outs. Ball 4, winning run is walked in.

a) BR does not advance to 1st, but enters dugout.

b) R1 does not advance to home, but enters dugout.

Do you call either runner out?
Are either of these appeal plays?
Is there a difference between a) and b)?

ASA Rules, fast pitch please.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:26 PM]

a) out - 3rd out BR does not reach 1st.
b) out - In this case does not matter.


ASA Rule 8 Sec. 7 U. (The Runner is Out)

Do not believe it is an appeal.

[Edited by whiskers_ump on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:04 PM]

Depends whether it is FP or SP.

Case play 8.6.1

In a FP game, bottom of the 10th inning, two outs, tie score, with R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. B4 draws a walk. (a) B4 fails to go to 1B and instead enters his team area, although all other runners advance one base. (b) R3 does not advance to 2B and instead walks off the field, although all other runners and the batter do advance one base. Are these appeal plays, or should the umpire call the infractions when he sees them?

Ruling: When a walk is issued, all runners, including the batter, must touch all bases awarded. Therefore, in (a) as soon as B4 enters his team's area, he should be called out by the umpire. Because the out occurred before the BR reached 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is the result of a force out, no run can score on the play. In (b) as soon as the runner from 1B leaves the field of play or enters his team area, he should be called out by the umpire. This is also a force and no runs will score. In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.

My appended handwritten note says, "In SP, the ball is dead. The defense must appeal."

<i>greymule - In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.</i>

Is this saying that umpire must call it as soon as runners
enters DBT, or does he wait for the appeal? Probably would
not be one is this case, everyone leaving the field figuring
the game was over.

I've edited my scenario to indicate fast pitch. Sorry for my myopia.

Notice the difference in wording between rules 8-2D (scenario a) and 8-7U (scenario b).

<b>greymule - In neither case is it an appeal play. It must be called by the umpire as soon as the offending player leaves the field of play.</b>

It appears that somebody posted this and then Whiskers quoted it. Who wrote it originally?

This may be correct, but I'm wondering why the case book specified FP. And I wouldn't have simply arbitrarily added a note that in SP it's an appeal. Wish I had my books with me at the moment.

The case book says FP because in some SP divisions the ball is dead on a base on balls and the BR is not out for entering the dugout during a dead ball. Same as in FP with a HBP. The ball is dead and the BR is not out for leaving the field of play. That would leave a defensive appeal for failing to touch the base.

No one has yet offered an opinion on what I was fishing for...

Is there a difference between "fails to advance" (referring to the BR in rule 8-2D) and "abandons a base" (referring to a runner in rule 8-7U)?

If there is no difference, then there is a direct call of OUT by the umpire in both scenarios. No appeal.

If there is a difference, then it could be argued that R1 in scenario b did not "abandon a base" but rather walked of the field after the game was (apparently) over. This would then seem to require a defensive appeal (presumably for failing to touch home).

While it is true that R1 did fail to advance, that is not the words the rule uses. Did R1 also abandon the base?

Fishing? How did I know that's what you were doing? :)

It doesn't make any difference as neither is a cause for ruling a player out.

Help me understand your reasoning.

ASA Rule 8-2D says the BR is out when the BR fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a base on balls.

Case play 8.6-1 (referenced above) says the same thing. So does case play 8.2-11 and 8.2-12.

ASA Rule 8-7U / Case play 8.6-1 also calls the runner out for not advancing and entering the dugout on a BOB. There is no other case play that I could find that addresses this situation with 8-7U.

PS, in case it is not obvious, Mike, I brought this discussion over to this board so the discussion could be more open.

<b>The case book says FP because in some SP divisions the ball is dead on a base on balls and the BR is not out for entering the dugout during a dead ball.</b>

Yes. My case book is a couple of years old, written before stealing was instituted. It assumed a dead ball after a pitch, not always the case today. This leads me to start a new thread.

Though I don't think my answer can be clearer, I will try to make it so. A runner cannot be ruled out for abandoning a base or failing to advance to 1B.

Quote:

PS, in case it is not obvious, Mike, I brought this discussion over to this board so the discussion could be more open.

Probably more obvious to me than the others ;)

Is the case book play out of date, then? Or is there some difference between it and mere "failure to advance" or "abandonment of a base"? Is entering the dugout or leaving the field the key?

Your answer was very clear, even more so now. What I don't understand is what happens to 8-2D, 8-7U, and the case plays. Admittedly, I have the 2003 case book with me here at work (the 2004 one is at home), but it does seem very clear. Were these case plays removed or the rulings changed?

Is this an NUS interpretation that is not documented in the rule book (like the flagrant misconduct OUT)? But at least that one was in the case book.

The 2004 Case Book says the same thing.

Mike can you explain to us why they cannot be called out
for abanding a base when three different case book plays
tell us that they can.

Thanks,

Glen,

No, I'm afraid they do not do that. Please read the rule cited and find the similar caveat which allows the umpire to call a player out?

If you are referring to 10-1K, besides using the generic "retired in accordance with these rules", even if you define "retired" as meaning "by action of the defense" there remain other rules whereby the runner or batter-runner is out that do not meet that defintion and do not require an appeal.

If you are saying that "failing to advance" and "abandoning a base" are special cases of "failure to touch a base," I can find nothing in the rules or interps (POE, Case Book) that supports that.

And finally, there is the direct statement in case play 8.6-1 that the batter-runner "should be declared out by the umpire" ... "as soon as B4 enters his team's area" and "In neither case is it an appeal play."

You're driving me crazy, Mike. Can you say, explicitly, how you are coming to the view that a runner cannot be ruled out for abandoning a base or failing to advance to 1B?

Mike,

I am still looking....http://mindscraps.com/s/cwm/cwm/nerd.gif

If the answer lies in 10-1K, I am missing it.

10-1K. does not include a player entering team area as
an appeal call, nor does it include it necessary to have
an appeal to call a runner out for abandoning a base and
entering team area or leaving field of play.

What are we missing????

Mike,

Are you referring to Rule 8-5A? Why would the casebook contradict this ruling.

A runner cannot be called out for failing to advance or abandoning a base.

They can be call out for doing this during a live ball by leaving the field of play and entering DBT.

If they do not leave the field of play, the umpire does not have the authority to rule the out solely for "failing to advance" or "abandoning a base".

I thought you guys would easily get that one. Y'all trying to think too much. :)

<i>Originally posted by greymule:</i>

<b>Is entering the dugout or leaving the field the key?</b>

That greymule is pretty sharp.

OK... ya got me, Mike. I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice that you were not referring to the presented scenario (which DID have the players entering the dugout), but to the simple "failing to advance" and "abandoning a base" as an isolated act.

Some rule books DO contain the "abandoning" by itself as an OUT. ASA does not. Entering the dugout (or leaving the field of play) during a live ball is what the OUT is for.

Starting from Tom's originial post and not reading the
last few replies, I will again attempt to give my answers
and then the guru's can hammer away.

Bases loaded, tie game, 7th inning, home team at bat with 2 outs. Ball 4, winning run is walked in.

a) BR does not advance to 1st, but enters dugout.

<b> Out - ASA Rule 8-2D [BR Is Out]</b> Fails to advance,
enters DBT.

b) R1 does not advance to home, but enters dugout.

<b> Out - ASA Rule 8-7U [Runner Is Out] Runner left (abandons), base enters DBT.</b>

Do you call either runner out? <b> Both </b>

Are either of these appeal plays? <b> No </b>

Is there a difference between a) and b)? <b>Yes</b>
BR did not abandon a base, she never had it. Just left
field of play.
R1 <u>abandons</u> a base she had and enters DBT.

ASA Rules, fast pitch please.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 21st, 2004 at 05:26 PM]
__________________
Tom

Ok - have at me.

So is it or is it not an appeal in SP?

Rule 8-2D. Exception - (Slow Pitch Only) The ball is dead when runners
are not required to run bases on a HR or four base award, or on a base
on balls. The ball is dead, the BR is not out. Other than on a HR
or four base award, runners cannot advance unless forced.

Evidently not.

It seems to me that 8-2-D is saying that the BR is simply not automatically out for entering his team area after a base on balls, as he would be in FP.

However, he is still obliged to get to 1B eventually. If he remains on the bench, the defense could appeal and BR would then be out.

SP: Tie score, bottom 7, bases loaded, 2 out. BR gets a base on balls and goes directly to his team area and remains there. Ump does not call him out, as ball is dead. However, defense appeals that he did not reach 1B, BR is out and run is nullified. That's the way I read it, anyway.

[Edited by greymule on Jun 25th, 2004 at 10:18 AM]

I read it as the same as in FP with a HBP. IOW, the batter is not out for entering DBT during a DB.

Presumably, once the umpire determines that the BR has conpleted all the base running s/he intends to do, an appeal for a missed base would be recognized.