Situation: runners on 1ts and 2nd. Batter hits the ball to the LC fielder. The ump grabs the bat and tosses it to the side to get it out of the baseline to avoid a possible injury.

The throws comes into home trying to throw the runner who started on 2nd out. The throw is wild, BUT it hits the bat that the ump tossed to the side. The ball then bounces off the bat and away from the catcher letting the runner who started on first to score, batter ends up on 3rd base.

What is the call? Do the runners go back to the previous base as if the ball didn't hit the bat, which the ump tossed to that spot, they would not have advanced the one more base, or do they score and move into 3rd like they did?

Runs Score....Batter-Runner is on 3rd.

Naturally the Kellerumps have it correct.

Added note: That is why I never touch a bat. Not my
(or any umpires) job to remove the bat.

If I pick up a bat, I keep it in my hand until just before I have to make a call. This changes occasionally to fit the situation however.

I don't mess with players' equipment until the play is over. Then I may pick up a bat or the catcher's helmet.

Are you guys saying you wouldn't pick up a bat that's laying in the basepath? What if a runner doesn't have time to stop and pick it up and rolls an ankle? Guess who the courts will say is liable in this situation.

The bat manufacturer?

Ref Ump Welsch,

Suppose the bat you <b><u>moved</b></u> caused the same
problem? If you never touched the bat, you cannnot be
liable. No where in the rules, or at any umpire clinic
does it state, we as umpires are to remove a carelessly
thrown bat.

I was thinking about this exact thing last night when a few times a bat was thrown directly across the line between 3rd and home. I think this is going to be one of those subjects where it is half and half. Half think move it and the other half think do not touch it in any circumstance. I personally have always been torn in the situation and most of the time move it if I see I have a chance to do so without affecting my duties. In many cases that involves just kicking it out of the way the best I can other times if I have plenty of time I might pick it up and chunk it away from everything. I would be really interested to see how most of you guys handle this. Maybe it will change my thought processes on it one way or another as right now I am straddling the fence. I do it a lot but at times feel weird about it because of the issues mentioned.

I developed a bad habit of moving the bat out of the way with my foot. Never bend over to pick up the bat, I would just kick it out of the way. On many occasion, that would be halfway to 1B if the play was coming from anywhere other than the right side.

Luckily, I have never taken this anywhere other than the local fields and am working to completely break myself of the habit.

The umpire should never handle any equipment, including the ball. It's the player's game, let them deal with it.

BTW, this is true even after the play. You may think you are being courteous in picking up a bat or helmet, but, once again, this is the player's equipment. I've seen catchers and on deck batters throw the equipment back to the ground after it was handed to them. I assume it was a superstition thing, but if that is part of their game, it is not for the umpire to interfere.

I've seen pitchers drop the ball if handed to them by anyone other than F2, but I haven't seen that from batters or catchers (but then, I'm not dealing with AAs).

I think we tend to <b><big>WAY</big></b> overblow the fear of litigation thing. As a lawyer I know is fond of saying, you can sue anyone for anything, but winning is another matter.

I noticed the fan who tried to sue the Brewers (I think I have the team right) over an injury caused by a foul ball had the suit tossed out of court.

I would expect the same thing here, hence my wise guy answer to the question about liability.

Besides, it would be an issue between the plaintiff and my insurance carrier anyway.

Moving the bat will actually lessen your liability, because you will be negligent in leaving it where it was. By leaving the bat in the basepath, and knowing it was there, you establish negligence.

Tom,

It will not be just between the plaintiff and the insurance company. You'll get deposed in the process. Just because it doesn't make it to court doesn't mean your life will get probed into.

Wrong. If you had nothing to do with the bat being there, and you didn't since it was the result of the play, then there is no way that you can be held liable or even considered negligent for not doing anything about it. It is a public field, being used by the public, for the intent that it was designed and established for. Your statement here is akin to saying something along the lines of, there is ice on the street, and if you are aware of it and fail to remove it, you will be liable for any accidents that occur. That is total BS, and you know it. Now, if this was your own private property that you had someone playing ball on, your argument may hold water.

However, it is the legal gurus for the various associations who have for years told umpires not to handle equipment, because if anything happens to a player as a result, then you are liable. By not moving equipment, by not even touching it, there is absolutely no way that you can be liable.

I seriously doubt it would come to that ... remember, you are suggesting that the umpire is liable for an injury to a player who falls over a piece of playing equipment being used in the way it was intended in the game and being in a place it could reasonably be expected to be during the normal course of the game and for which the umpire has no responsiblities under the rules of the game.

But, even if it did come to a deposition, explaining to a conference room of lawyers and a court recorder that the case is BS is a minor inconvenience.

OK, You all have just about convinced me to not mess with bats during play which is what I always thought about but after play is dead I never thought of it being a problem and I always pick up bats and hand to coaches etc. Now you have me thinking maybe that is wrong when I have always just thought it was being courteous.

Dukat:

No doubt that it is courtesy to do something like that. However, it just isn't prudent. You are much better off leaving all equipment that doesn't belong to you alone.

IMO, all legal issues aside, I think we have plenty to do during live ball play besides looking for the bat and moving it to where we think it will out of the way. (As this post shows, sometimes it is not!)

Let's see.. batted ball fair/foul, caught on fly or trapped, did the batter runner touch first and if so which part of first (double bag), did she run in the running lane, was there obstruction or interference, safe or out, swipe tag, pulled foot, tag ups, etc.etc.etc.

With all that going on I just don't see myself spending time on finding and moving the bat. The players will deal with it. I also don't touch the equipment after play ends except during the pregame equipment check of bats and helmets. Yes, the thought is there sometimes to be courteous and pick up a helmet that is at your feet when F2 has run down to 1B to back up a throw rather than let her go get it; but aside from the reasons others have given I think this "courteous act" can be perceived incorrectly by others. Goes along with not fraternizing with players you know outside softball on the field.

Quite the contrary. The moment you move the bat, you have involved yourself. If you do your job as an umpire by watching the ball, the runners touch the bases and set up to make the calls for which you are there, you are doing the job as prescribed and cannot be held liable for knowing where the bat is located.

Players assume risks inherent to the game and the equipment used in that game. The moment the umpire does anything to interject themselves into any possible scenario, then they have placed themselves in jeopardy.

Granted, an attorney could argue in the manner you suggest, but there will be no documentation to support the argument. Meanwhile, I have a load of documentation to support exactly what an umpire is trained to do in any certain on-field situation and none of them include touching the bat, helmet or ball.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Jun 18th, 2004 at 10:28 PM]

I don't have the dates or anything, but about 9-12 years ago, a umpire threw a bat aside and the catcher rolled over it on the way to make a play, breaking his/her ankle. They sued for $7 million and won. In the PONY classes I go to every year, they preach to never, never, touch a bat. If you do, absolutely never let go of the bat until the play has stopped. I've just carried this over into all the other softball groups also. I get yelled at a lot to move a bat, but I haven't gotten yelled at yet for breaking a players ankle. Might as well keep it that way.

7 mil for a broken ankle? I'd wager that award was set aside / significantly reduced on appeal.

Thank you to everyone for answering my question and going into such detail. Being a rookie still, last year was my 1st year, I can't believe the number of questions or things that I have never seen on a field while I have I started umping compared to playing over the last 17 years. Most of the leagues that I do here in the western burbs of Chicago, the players are talking to much, not in the on-deck circle ready to grab the bat to make a safe path for their teammate. I have to admit that I think about the safety of the players I am umping, and I do grab the bat and carry it with me until the play is done. I have had on more than one occasion, have a team say thank you for grabbing the bat to save a possible injury at the plate. IN this day of people sueing people over the fat content of a McDonald's burger, it is nice to hear the thank you's as they are few and far between. Thanks again to everyone for your responses and the responses to all my questions that I have put up here so far in my short time on the site.

Guy