illegal/unreported subs

[kono]

Reading thru the PONY rule book, and want to make sure I understand correctly - For illegal or unreported subs, I say nothing unless someone points it out to me???

[Bandit]

I know you specified "Pony" rules but if I may...In most organizations ( I mainly do ASA and HS) I do not believe it's the job of any umpire or scorekeeper to bring these problems to the attention of either coach. "Hey blue why you helping him?", "Hey blue you gave him a break last inning". Your asking for a lot of trouble their I think. But...if you were to "quietly" mention to the coach between innings that you noticed a different player playing first base last inning and was wondering if he forgot to tell you anything that might be considered "preventive" umpiring ? The worst feeling I ever got was once when the scorekeeper stopped a game I was doing and informed a coach he was batting out of order. While that coach got to put the correct batter in the box and assume the count, the opposing coach who claimed he knew they were out of order and was waiting until the batter had completed her turn at bat was fuming mad because the "scorekeeper" had just "helped" the opposing team.

[kono]

That was my impression - say nothing, just like BOO or missed base. It's the opponent's burden to figure it out.

In Little League - we take more of a preventative approach. "Can't make that sub coach, it's illegal."

[Dakota]

Originally posted by kono
Reading thru the PONY rule book, and want to make sure I understand correctly - For illegal or unreported subs, I say nothing unless someone points it out to me???

Speaking ASA (since I don't know Pony rules).

Strictly speaking, neither of these are appeal plays. So whoever "discovers" the problem may deal with it without waiting on the coaches, etc. to act. If the offended team discovers it, it is handled as a protest.

I will prevent the illegal (reported) sub ("Coach, you can't do that.") I probably will not catch the unreported sub, unless it is obvious (e.g. batter coming to bat is called back by the coach and a different batter comes in; pitching change; etc.). If it is obvious, I will ask the coach if he is making a substitution rather than allow it to continue to a protest.

If the game has an official scorekeeper, the scorekeeper should keep out of it.

If the official scorekeeper is also associated with one of the teams (100% true for our ASA or NFHS games), then you can't really prevent the scorekeeper from helping "his/her" coach.

[WestMichBlue]

" I do not believe it's the job of any umpire or scorekeeper to bring these problems to the attention of either coach."

If it is an unreported sub then you don't know about it, so obviously you do not say anything.

If, however, you are in a situation where umpires are given line-up cards and all subs are to be reported through you, then it is your responsibility to detect an illegal sub and tell the coach not to make that substitution. That is called preventative umpiring.

Say the O Coach sends in #10 to be a CR for the catcher in the 6th inning. You check your line-up card and see that #10 ran for the pitcher back in the 3rd inning. Your immediate response should be; "Sorry Coach, you need a different CR for your catcher."

KONO - The above is not part of PONY rules; it is simply part of good umpiring. The PONY rules only define the penalties you access should an unreported sub (called Ineligible by PONY) be detected by the scorekeeper or the opposing team. It also defines the penalties for an Illegal sub, but my position is "shame on you" if you allowed a coach to enter an illegal sub.

WMB

[kono]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
KONO - The above is not part of PONY rules; it is simply part of good umpiring. The PONY rules only define the penalties you access should an unreported sub (called Ineligible by PONY) be detected by the scorekeeper or the opposing team. It also defines the penalties for an Illegal sub, but my position is "shame on you" if you allowed a coach to enter an illegal sub.

Thanx - You're right, that's not what I got from the book, but what I expected to see somewhere.