Men's SP - Illegal vs. No pitch

[Robmoz]

Last night I had this sitch - worked alone, rainy/muddy and I could not determine if F1 was/was not on the rubber at time of delivery. Ball is pitched, OC yells "off the rubber", the pitch comes in and is ruled a ball. Next pitch I clearly see F1 off the rubber on delivery, OC yells again "off the rubber". I signal/say illegal pitch as the ball is released and repeat it at the apex of the pitch, B1 swings and hits a HR. DC yells that his pitcher was off the rubber and it should be "no pitch" not "illegal pitch" and wants the batter to hit again. I firmly sell the illegal pitch call and allow the play to stand as B1 chose to swing at the illegal pitch. I honestly forget what the rule is and my book is not with me, pray tell, what should the call have been?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Robmoz
Last night I had this sitch - worked alone, rainy/muddy and I could not determine if F1 was/was not on the rubber at time of delivery. Ball is pitched, OC yells "off the rubber", the pitch comes in and is ruled a ball. Next pitch I clearly see F1 off the rubber on delivery, OC yells again "off the rubber". I signal/say illegal pitch as the ball is released and repeat it at the apex of the pitch, B1 swings and hits a HR. DC yells that his pitcher was off the rubber and it should be "no pitch" not "illegal pitch" and wants the batter to hit again. I firmly sell the illegal pitch call and allow the play to stand as B1 chose to swing at the illegal pitch. I honestly forget what the rule is and my book is not with me, pray tell, what should the call have been?

Speaking ASA

It is an illegal pitch and all aspects of an illegal pitch call apply.

[Robmoz]

Ok, it's an illegal pitch. Would it ever be a 'no pitch' or because it is related to the mechanic of the pitcher it is always considered an illegal pitch?

[whiskers_ump]

Robmoz,

I don't do slow pitch, but isn't it a dead ball? I
think there is a difference in FP and SP on this. In
FP if the ball is hit, and reaches base safetly and if
all runners advance at least one base, illegal pitch is
nullified.

Could certainly be wrong, since I have done no slow pitch
in several years.

[chuck chopper]

See Rule 6, sect 9 A-F For "No Pitch" . Pitcher breaking contact with rubber is Illegal not a NO PITCH.

[Robmoz]

I will review that reference, thanks! Further, if contact was never made to begin with as opposed to "breaking contact" is that illegal, too?

[chuck chopper]

In the Preliminary the pitcher can't start unless he gets up on the rubber. So if you can tell they are not on the rubber, keep your hand up & don't let them pitch. If he/she asks what the hold up is say "get on the rubber, then you can pitch"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

You are all making this way too hard. The rule book is really simple to read.

A delivered IP is always a DDB in ALL games. It is never a no pitch.

Rule 6.1-7 sets the parameters required for a legal pitch. Violation of any of those causes an IP.

[jxt127]

I do slo-pitch but not ASA. On an illegal pitch if the batter swings the pitch becomes legal.

We also dont use a rubber but rather a zone that the pitcher must keep one foot within.

[greymule]

The exact way to handle this play has troubled me for a long time. 6-1-A says, "The pitcher must take a position with both feet firmly on the ground and with one or both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitcher's pivot foot must be in contact with the pitcher's plate throughout the delivery."

Clearly, the pitcher in the original post violated 6-1-A.

EFFECT says, "A dead ball should be called, an illegal pitch ruled, a warning is issued, and repeated action would result in the pitcher [being] ruled illegal, and removed from the pitching position."

Well, if a dead ball is called immediately, the batter cannot obviously cannot swing at the pitch. Case play 6S.7.2 gives the telling example "The pitcher spits on the ball and pitches it before the umpire can stop play [my emphasis]. The batter (a) swings and misses, (b) hits a home run, or (c) does not swing." The ruling is that in (a) and (b) the play stands since the batter swung at the pitch. Part (c) of course is ruled an illegal pitch.

I infer that on certain types of illegal pitches (spitting on the ball, starting/delivering off the rubber, catcher not being in the box, pitcher making a motion to pitch without pitching), if the umpire can halt play immediately, it is a dead ball and an illegal pitch. If he fails to stop play immediately, such pitches are treated like high or flat pitches.

The book is a bit contradictory, because in 6-1-D it says, "a dead ball should be called," while in 6-7-C it says, "Any infraction of Section 1-7 is an illegal pitch" and "If a batter swings at or contacts any illegal pitch, it is nullified and all play stands."

I have been yelling, "Dead ball!" on illegal pitches that fall under Section 6-1, such as the one described in the original post. Of course, if I fail to get those words out, I have to treat the illegal pitch as a delayed, not an immediate, dead ball.

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by chuck chopper
In the Preliminary the pitcher can't start unless he gets up on the rubber. So if you can tell they are not on the rubber, keep your hand up & don't let them pitch. If he/she asks what the hold up is say "get on the rubber, then you can pitch"

Ok, agreed the pitcher cannot start unless on the rubber but I only hold up a hand if the batter requests or if I am not ready, if the pitcher delivers off the rubber why should I declare 'no pitch'? I agree with Mike that it is simply a DDB illegal pitch. Am I missing something else here or building a mountain?

[Robmoz]

Grey -

nice reply, I think you have the right point and it elaborates on Mike's KISS comment.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
The exact way to handle this play has troubled me for a long time. 6-1-A says, "The pitcher must take a position with both feet firmly on the ground and with one or both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitcher's pivot foot must be in contact with the pitcher's plate throughout the delivery."

Clearly, the pitcher in the original post violated 6-1-A.

EFFECT says, "A dead ball should be called, an illegal pitch ruled, a warning is issued, and repeated action would result in the pitcher [being] ruled illegal, and removed from the pitching position."

Well, if a dead ball is called immediately, the batter cannot obviously cannot swing at the pitch. Case play 6S.7.2 gives the telling example "The pitcher spits on the ball and pitches it before the umpire can stop play [my emphasis]. The batter (a) swings and misses, (b) hits a home run, or (c) does not swing." The ruling is that in (a) and (b) the play stands since the batter swung at the pitch. Part (c) of course is ruled an illegal pitch.

I infer that on certain types of illegal pitches (spitting on the ball, starting/delivering off the rubber, catcher not being in the box, pitcher making a motion to pitch without pitching), if the umpire can halt play immediately, it is a dead ball and an illegal pitch. If he fails to stop play immediately, such pitches are treated like high or flat pitches.

The book is a bit contradictory, because in 6-1-D it says, "a dead ball should be called," while in 6-7-C it says, "Any infraction of Section 1-7 is an illegal pitch" and "If a batter swings at or contacts any illegal pitch, it is nullified and all play stands."

I have been yelling, "Dead ball!" on illegal pitches that fall under Section 6-1, such as the one described in the original post. Of course, if I fail to get those words out, I have to treat the illegal pitch as a delayed, not an immediate, dead ball.

My belief is that this effect is in place when this action takes place sans delivery. If there is no delivery and you have already ruled IP, why should the pitcher even throw the ball? IOW, this gives the umpire the authority to rule on a play that isn't going to occur.

For example, according to Grey's ruling, a pitcher which walks through a delivery should be a dead ball, no pitch, ball on the batter. Problem is, this is defeating the purpose of a DDB which is to allow the batter to hit the ball if they elect to do so. You rule a dead ball and the batter drives in a winning run and you negate it because you ruled dead ball, I certainly hope the engine is running 'cause you are definitely going to need a quick getaway

[greymule]

My belief is that this effect is in place when this action takes place sans delivery.

That may well be. The case book play implies such when it specifies "before the umpire can stop play."

It wouldn't hurt for the book to state that explicitly.

The entire debate shows the importance of calling the illegal pitch immediately. To me, this is one of the hardest parts of officiating SP. After an hour of routine pitches, F1 steps on the rubber and pitches without pausing. It is easy to get caught and not get "illegal" out in time.