High School district tournament games yesterday, NFHS.

I had two calls at home plate yesterday that have got me thinking a little. Maybe some of you have some words of wisdom or suggestions...

Unexpectedly close game (I thought one team was going to dominate but it didn't happen) of 1-0 in the top of the 5th. Pitch bounces and gets past the catcher. It hits me in the gut and drops straight down. Catcher turns to the left searching for the passed ball. I step back to my right and see the ball where my feet were. Catcher has not found it yet. Runner is coming from 3rd. Catcher finds ball and straddles baseline with the plate a foot behind her. I'm now realizing I need to get closer to perpendicular and to 3rd to see this play... too late. I'm at about a 45 degree angle behind the catcher as runner slides. Catcher has ball in plenty of time and is in great position to make an out. Slide is head first, very flat to the ground, with one arm extended at home between the catcher's legs. I see tag on forehead of runner (not on the arm) and hand extended touching home. I call the unexpected call and rule SAFE. Coach (of what I thought would be the dominating team) of course complains so I explain what I saw.

Now it is top of 6th and the score is now 3-4 two outs... still very close. Tag play coming at home - same teams are running and tagging. Throw is coming slightly late runner should be safe. Runner, as is typical, comes in standing up... no, no, tries to slide about 2-3 feet before the plate. Lead foot catches in the dirt and bounces up and over the plate - 6 to 8 inches in the air. Throw is caught and tag is made. Again, I make the unexpected call and rule OUT. Coach is livid; fans go nuts - of course they always have been and always will be nuts, but it is an emotional moment.

Later, the better team scores 1 in the bottom of the sixth and the game ends with 3-5 score. Actually had a fan come to me after the game as I and my partner are walking away... "Hey Blue!" And I'm thinking, Oh great here comes a disgruntled parent... but he says "You made the right call." "THANKS." Okay one out of 75 bystanders think it was the right call.

So here is the question. I've seen umpires that I know make the EXPECTED calls... either because they want to make the fans and coaches and possibly the players happy or because they don't make the effort to really see what happens (generally they are lazy umpires). I look back at both of these calls and know I could have just as well made the expected call, probably not effected the overall outcome of the game (maybe), and not taken any heat from either coach or any of the fans. Nobody would have come to me after the game and said that I made the right call.

Coaches would have been happy and I would likely get a call for state tournament assignments. Now??? maybe not.

But I wouldn't have felt good about intentionally making a wrong call, or intentionally being lazy and not seeing the correct call.

What is the umpire's job? Which is the right call, the one that leads to the less controversy and pleases the most people, or the right call according to what the umpire sees - which can obviously be influenced by the amount of effort the umpire puts into getting the correct call?

Surely some of you have had similar experiences - these were not my first controversial calls. But, what say you about your experiences and the umpire's responsibility?

These types of calls happen every year and I try to make the call based on what I see not on the action perceived by others. I get aggravated by umpires that rush the called based on preconceived outcomes especially when the ball beats the runner by a mile but the infielder misses the tag or tags the runner late.

Like the play at home which you described, I had a coach insist that his runner's foot broke the plane of the plate extended upward.

Another tough play is with a runner on 1st, the batter hits a ground ball to the second baseman who attempts to tag the runners missing by 6-8 inches then throws to first for the out. From their angle, the fans perceive a double play but actually you have a runner on second with one out recorded. I had a father tearing me a new one over that call until his daughter assured him that she missed the tag. He apologized for his behavior at the end of the inning.

I suspect we've all been there, DownTown. I think you're going to doubt yourself either way. Good philosophical question.

Passed ball, runner from 3B tries for home. Pitcher covers and quick throw from F2 beats the runner by 15 feet. Pitcher holds the glove down a foot in front of the plate, about ten inches off the ground. You see that the sliding runner's foot touches the plate a moment before her knee hits the glove. What are you going to call? Safe may be what God sees, but they call that and worse an out in the Major Leagues and nobody argues.

On the other hand, if the throw had been a little late and F1 had been unable to get the tag down in time, you'd call safe on what was pretty much the same type of late tag.

Runner stealing 3B. F5 gloves the throw and puts the glove down in front of 3B. Runner slides, and an instant before F5's foot would have hit the glove, F5 lifts the glove to show you the ball. It's an out in MLB. Are you going to call safe in girls' rec FP?

Of course, even if you're the only one in the park who after a tag at 2B sees the ball bounce on the ground and right back into the glove, you call safe.

Are you going to call out on the LBR if, with the ball in the circle, the runner on 1B lifts her foot an inch off the bag for a quarter of a second in order to place it on the front edge in preparation for the pitch?

Last year in a SP playoff I called safe at 2B on a DP attempt when F4 straddled the bag with 10 inches of daylight between each foot and the bag. You'd have thought I pulled the Brinks robbery, even though the defense admitted he in fact had not been on the bag. I'll stick with my decision on that one, though.

Last summer, SP tourney, home team way ahead. Visitors' F3 lifts his foot off 1B a step before the runner gets there. The throw was good; he could have held the bag easily. But he pulled the old "we're all professionals here; everybody knows that at our level you can leave 1B early."

I thought for an instant but then called out. A couple of guys on the offense started to say something, but some of their teammates told them they'd have called an out, too.

Of course, had they been behind by 2 instead of ahead by 21, they might have felt different. I also probably would have made a different call. (And I also suspect F3 wouldn't have pulled his foot.)

basically these kind of plays boil down to being either:
1) runner touches plate/base before fielder makes the tag, or
2) fielder makes the tag before runner touches plate/base.
You must call what you see !
If I cannot "separate" the two events in my mind-- I call SAFE.
The wildest ones at home plate are when neither the runner
touches the plate nor the fielder makes a tag---- you hesitate-
make a safe call and wait to see what happens.
Isn't umpiring fun ??

I call it the way I saw it, and not the way they saw it. Yep, we all get grief about that but when I'm driving home I know I did the right thing..and come back tomorrow for more.
And as mentioned when its all over some spectators know I did the unpopular but right call.

Sell the Call
 

You have to call what you see. If an evaluator is downgrading you for making the correct call when unpopular, relative to future assignments, then I'd be asking for direct advice as to exactly what calls and rules he wants made contrary to fact, and what the supporting directive is, so that when one of these obvious departures is eventually questioned, you can provide the justification.

On the close call with the unexpected outcome, I often add after "SAFE" something like "Pulled the foot" or "Hand beat tag" that explains what I saw. Doesn't mean the disadvantaged coach agrees, but at least he knows what I perceived, and I don't seem to get many questions once they know the basis for the call.

You did the correct thing. Believe or not.. coaches have some respect for umps who call it as they see it, even if they dont agree.

I give you an alternative example.

Last month I was watching my daughters team play - I am Joe Fan. The umpire is a HS kid obviously not very well learned or good at umpiring.

Someone on my daughters team come sliding into home plate and is tagged out by a foot. It's not even a close play. I am standing to the side near the bench but outside the fence of course and yell "SAFE" (yes the pangs of guilt are overwhelming) ... the ump makes the call safe. I saw it, both coaches saw it, everyone knew it was an out.. but I yelled safe and the ump was affected by that yell.

So while you could shade your calls to what YOU THINK the people want you to call or what you think they saw.. (I yelled safe even though I knew it was an out - just because) you will not be a respected umpire and everyone will know you dont know what you are doing.

Call it as you see it. Period.

You know guys, we're there to make the controversial calls and enforce the unpopular rules. If it weren't for that, they wouldn't need us. We're there to keep it a level playing field, according to rules. If it was a majority vote, they would just put up little boxes in the bleachers and let the fans vote. You gotta call what you saw and that is that!

You guys must have brains that work a lot faster than mine. I'm generally not in a position to think about the consequences of a call before I make the call without it looking like a really, really late call.

Shoot, ain't nuttin' wrong with a hesitation call. The way George Studdard usedta tell us in Texas, " They ain't out til ya call 'em out!!" Or sumpin' like that.

I read this post yesterday, and didn't think about it again until tonight. Had a varsity game, was close for a while, county rivals playing each other (in fact, of the 13 kids on each team, I know at least 6 of them were related). Anyway, Had runners on 2nd and 3rd, no outs. Fly ball to right. Catch is made and tag is good, throw is about 15 feet high coming into the plate. Goes over catchers head. Runner from second is being sent to plate. I have never been able to get all the way to first baseline before, but in the back of my mind I was remembering your post. I busted my fat rear (all 300 pounds of it) and got position. Flip from catcher is there, but tag is way high. Fans go nuts thinking she is out. Catcher told them the tag was high, they start arguing with her! She told them to shut up! I loved it.

Best catcher I ever had.

Very interesting conversation that causes me to reflect deeply about unexpected calls and umpire ratings.

This afternoon, Varsity game, visitors up 4-0 top of 7th, one on, one out. Ground ball to short; throw pulls F3 off base into path of B-R. They collide. B-R finally disengages and manages to touch 1B.

I am PU looking right down the line and see that F3 has ball in glove held close to her belly. She never tagged the B-R! Partner is looking at me for help; I give a small safe signal in front of my body; he goes with it. All hell breaks loose. After conferences Home Coach knows that I made the call and he is ticked. "Its obvious that they collided; therefore the B-R was obviously tagged."

So instead of 2 outs, they now have 1 out and two runners on. Before the rally is over, the runner that should have been out and one after what should have been the 3rd out have scored. The home team is facing a 7-0 deficit in the bottom of the 7th; too much to overcome against a very good pitcher.

The expected call was OUT; everyone assumed the out; even the visiting coach would not have complained. I called a good game; even though he lost, I would have expected a good rating from the home coach. But not now!

Next year, when I am a tenth of a point in overall ratings below the last umpire to fill a slot in the State Tournaments, do I think back to this call? Or a similiar one last week that led to a victory for one side, and a coach ejection on the other. Do you think that I received a good rating in that game?

Is it worth it? The calls were technically correct, but they went against the expected call. The expected call could have been sold with little controversy; the unexpected generated controversy.

Can you train yourself to make the expected call? Or does you mind lock in on what you actually see and you make the call before you can think through all the possiblities?

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on May 13th, 2004 at 02:47 AM]

This is a very interesting thread. The kind of thread for which I am very grateful to have this forum. We could never have this kind of insider discussion on places like eteamz.

I have a couple of thoughts.

First, I'd like to think my personal integrity would outweigh any consideration of umpire ratings / post season assignments. If I ever find myself making calls in order to brown nose the coach, I'll know it is time to hang up my mask.

Second, during the game my instincts take over. I'll call what I see. That is not to say I will always see things correctly. In WMB's example, I may very well have called the out, but not to make the expected call, but maybe because I wasn't watching quite as closely, or because I rushed my timing, or ... (various other mistakes). IOW, it would not have been because I decided to call against what I saw.

What we really have here is a flaw in the system that uses coaches to rate the performance of umpires. I realize it is cost prohibitive to have umpire evaluators at every varsity game, but the coach's ratings need to have some kind of counterbalance.

allright ill be the one to go against the grain on this thread. collision like that and your partner looks at you for help? if i was you i would be afraid for you partner for looking for help. my advice for you is to go to the main page officiating.com and read Carl Childress article the worst call i ever saw. its a great article.

I've read it. It is a provocative article, but when you boil it down, what it says is please the crowd when you can get away with it. Carl's answer to this thread seems like it would be obvious.

[Edited by Dakota on May 13th, 2004 at 12:04 PM]

As I read WMB's description, his partner was shielded from seeing the possible tag by F3's body (tag would have been in front, BU was behind). To ask for help was proper, although perhaps had I been the BU I would have been more obvious about the fact that I was asking my partner.

F3 did not tag the runner, even though everybody except WMB thought she did.

Is it a tag if the fielder has the ball in the glove and "tags" the runner with her shoulder? Of course not.

alright in softball you can make calls like you seem em. been doing baseball for nine years and softball for only two. I have found in softball most, not all coaches are not very hard on umpires. where as in baseball and you have a collision, not a little bump but a collision and you call a runner safe i would expect a coach out in an instant. yes i do realize this is the softball forum but just as in baseball i would call the runner out everytime.
and i would not look for my partners help.

Excuse me, but this is a softball board. Carl does not believe in the game. He has openingly stated that softball umpires do nothing, but chase a bunch of little girls who don't know what they are doing around the field.

What ever you want to do in baseball, that's fine by me, but softball is a different game with different priorities.

I think it would be a good idea to have partners evaluate each other in addition to the coaches evals. That would help counterbalance the mad coach syndrome.

I love this thread. Yes, possibly the most difficult call is the slide with the high tag. But if you can just get one eye to look at the plate and the other to look at the tag it should be very easy. But don't do it for long 'cause your eyes could "stick" like that.

Once in Little League I got roped into umpiring my youngest son's game because the umpire did not show up (imagine that!). My son at bat, full count, watches a good pitch come through on the inside corner. Oh yeah, tough spot...but the umpire made the right call...instantly...and with gusto (good mechanics). It was a couple of days before he (the son) got over being mad. Many years later (age 22) we spoke of the incident and he still couldn't believe I called him out. We both get a smile at the memory, and he agrees it was the right call and appreciates it. Best lesson on integrity I could have given him.

Had something like this with my little brother...he's four years younger, so I was out of "Majors" before he was in "Minors". I used to umpire most games, because no one else wanted to do it. Toughest call I had was bang-banger at first, would be last out of game, brothers team would win. I called him safe (happened to be a friend of my brothers)...both coaches said it was a good call...little brother disagreed...Didn't talk to me for a week (I should have made several more calls like that :) )

We've all probably had something like this in our careers whether it be son, daughter, brother, sister, best friend, etc.

My first ejection was my brother. Didn't believe I called him out on strikes. Being my brother, I guess he thought he was exempt for any form of umpire discipline.

He hit the right words and I tossed him. He went whining to our father who just laughed and told my brother not to argue with the umpire.

I'd like to hear about someone who got a parent. Now, that would be interesting.

DAKOTA -

"First, I'd like to think my personal integrity would outweigh any consideration of umpire ratings / post season assignments. If I ever find myself making calls in order to brown nose the coach, I'll know it is time to hang up my mask."

Admirable statment; holding the high ground of idealism as I expected you would.

But then you become a little pragmatic when you recognize the real world we exist in.

"What we really have here is a flaw in the system that uses coaches to rate the performance of umpires. . . . . .but the coach's ratings need to have some kind of counterbalance."

We both know the "Outie" umpires; anything that can be sold is going to be an out. Bunter hold bat in strike zone and get a strike call. Point out that pitch was out of strike zone and you'll be told it doesn't matter; he knows for sure that she must have attempted because, by golly, I've got a strike. I think these same umpires know how to make the crowd pleasing call; the safe call. They don’t make technical calls; no crow hops, no obstruction or leaving early when the game is on the line. They don't make enemies; they get good ratings; and yes they get tournament slots.

Here is a tough one – will you make this call?

Bottom of 7th, tying run on 3B, LH batter executes running slap hit that F1 snags. F1 wants to make a play on R1, but she dives back into 3B. Looks towards 1B, but speedy B-R is going to beat it out. So F1 holds on to ball.

Meantime B-R blew past 1B, turned right and was coming back to the base when she realized that Coach wanted her to continue to 2B and draw a throw. So she heads towards 2B in a slow jog.

Now the entire park is set up to enjoy the drama. Will the defensive team execute the right plays to get the runner out and not give up the run? Will the home team tie it up and send the game into extra innings? We will never know because the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR! Game over, home team loses, and you are looking for the first opening in the fence to get through to the sanctuary of your car.

This is possibly the most obscure rule in the book. Probably nobody on the field or in the dugouts knows it; even your partner doesn’t. But you know it. Are you going to call it? Pragmatism? Or Idealism?

WMB


[Edited by WestMichBlue on May 15th, 2004 at 12:49 AM]

Humor me here...where is the ball when the runner turns around?

"So F1 holds on to ball."

And:

"the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR!"


There is no trickery here, no HTBT; just a clear rules violation that one umpire saw - and called.

The question for you is:

Given that this is a very obscure rule that no one will know about nor understand,

Given the game situation, and that this call ends the game with the home team having the tying run on 3B,

Given that you are in for one hell of an explanation to a set of very irate coaches and players,

Given that the coaches are not going to believe you and assume that you made a very dumb mistake,

Given that protests are not allowed,

Given that you have to find a way off the field through a hostile crowd,

Given that you are guaranteed a very bad rating,

Then:

Would you have made that call?

WMB




WMB

Well, I'm assuming that the F1 had the ball in the circle. I'm still a little confused by all the "givens." Ya know us country boys can't hold onto too many thoughts all at oncet.

But, yeah, I make the call, if the pitcher was in the circle, it's really a no brainer. LBR, she's out, bring on the coaches. Let them vent a little, then have the AD walk you to your car, if necessary.

With the ball in the circle (F1 of course), and you know in your mind that the runner was committing back to first, you have to call it. If you don't, you've just done the defensive team wrong. Yeah, you take heat from it, but if it is the right call, it's the right call.

Let me throw one at you all...saw it at a 12U national 4 years ago.
Three umpire system.
Bases loaded, 2 outs. Hard grounder between shortstop and second base. R2 collides with F6 moving left to get ball. 3BU holds out left arm signaling obstruction. Three runs score as ball rolls all the way to fence. After play, 3BU is still holding arm out. PU calls for conference. All umpires meet. PU asks 3BU what they saw; 3BU says I have interference on R2 for colliding with fielder. Now;

1. Everyone saw her signal obstruction

2. 1BU didn't see what was happening

3. PU knows that if he calls interference on R2, he pulls three runs (and the lead) off of the board.

Winning team advances to Sunday games.

What do you call as PU?

OK, this was 12-U Nationals, close to the end of it apparently. How can an umpire at that level not know interference is a dead ball, not a delayed dead ball? Something is missing from the mix, here. As a PU, they could have called interference also. But, after letting the play continue, I'm not sure the PU can go back and say "Oh, by the way, that's a dead ball, she's out" without a lot of flak. The raised arm indicating OBS is not an issue to me. We all have a brain fart sometimes. But, you gotta recognize the mistake sooner or later and rectify it. At this point, I believe the PU has to tell the 3rd BU about the mechanics of interference. Then she needs to make the announcement of interference and the out. Then, the fun begins. And the 3rd BU is gonna have to let them have some fun, for awhile. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/sex.gif A short while. Under ASA Rule 10-Section 6-C, a PU is allowed to correct a call, if, as in this case, it puts the defense in jeopardy. But, after conferring with the 3rd BU, there is no way those runs are allowed to score, since they agree interference happened.

You know, you are correct, but sometimes people just make mistakes. It is probably a given this umpire hasn't seen another national, but you never know. Maybe the right people didn't see it happen, maybe the teams actually understood the mistake, but you never know.

Maybe this umpire is a good umpire and just had a brain fart. OTOH, maybe she was assigned as a reward or favor for one reason or another (which should not happen).

I'll guarantee you one thing, she never kicks that call again at any level.

I agree with both of you;

--maybe it was a brainfart
--maybe it was the first national for this umpire
--maybe 3BU should have reversed her own call
--maybe 1BU said it WAS obstruction during the conference
--maybe it was a lot of things

Anyway, PU calls conference with umpires, they decide it was interference, PU calls coaches together, tells them it was interference, runner is out, third out, no runs score.

Defense very happy.

Offense very unhappy. In the end, two coaches were ejected (one for place-kicking the ball over the fence, the other for thumping PU in chest with rule book), and umpires had to have an escort from diamond to the changing room.30 to 45 minutes after game ended (team on offense in scenario lost) the team members and parents are still walking around the park looking for the umpires that "cost us a national championship." Three umpires for the game were taken away from the diamond in a vehicle.

Did'ya ever notice that anytime there is a question about the call, the umpire cost the team the game and in this case, an unproven national championship!

Forget the fact that this coach's team couldn't score more runs than their opponent or keep their opponent from scoring more runs than they couldn't score. Forget the fact that is was THEIR runner who wasn't smart enough or COACHED well enough to avoid the interference. Forget that if the umpire had made the correct call originally, the result would have been the same.

I can tell you as a fact even without having been there that these coaches do not have hemmoroids. How do I know that? Because they acted like PLAIN ***holes.

Yes, the umpire made a mistake, but that does not take away from the FACT that the runner interfered with F6 and that means a dead ball and all runners must return to the base at the time of the interference.

And then there is the coach hitting the umpire with the rule book. GOODBYE! And, yes, if there is a policeman nearby, I'll be more than willing to sign the complaint. If not, ASA will get a letter requesting punitive action against said coach. And you know what? That letter may even reach the newspaper local to where his team is based.

I agree with Rick, too many "givens" for us farm boys, but
If pitcher in circle, with ball making no play on runner,
she commits one way, turns back, "out" at that point. Don't
even see a need for either coach appearing, surely a coach
unders the LBR. :D

Just to veer off the given subject a little, I had the easiest LBR call today, ever. Runners on 1st and 3rd. The ball gets by the catcher and the runner on 1st goes to 2nd. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher in the circle. As PU, I'm just waiting for the runner to get to 2nd, so I can call time and clean off the plate. I see her slowing down to a walk, stops and goes back to 1st 1 step from 2nd!!!!!! I'm just looking at my partner who is very experienced, waiting for him to call it. He sees her, looks at the pitcher, sees no indication of a play being made, looks at me, I shrug and shake my head no, he hesitates and finally calls her out on the LBR. I was cracking up, at the plate. I asked him what the hesitation was for and he told me he couldn't believe she got all the way to 2nd and went back to 1st. Teenagers!!!


Oh, yeah , the coach went crazy on my partner for about 2 1/2 seconds, then went crazy on the runner for about a 1/2 inning. My partner is a liitle less tolerant than I am. He is known in our group as the grumpy ole fart. He's one of the best we have in rules and mechanics, he just has a demeanor that says, "Don't mess with me"

I'll never see a easier LBR!

F4 quietly said, "<font size = 1/2><I>Foul....</font></I>".

I know were veering off the original thread here but why would the play TexBlue described be a violation of the lookback rule? If I understood, runner was moving toward 2nd (all be it slow), stops once, and then makes her decision to return to first. This is the same "stops one foot away from the base" situation I've seen discussed here before and there were a sizeable number who felt that no LBR violation had taken place. This seems like a decoy play gone wrong.

Well, in that case, what a great play on F4. Because my partner never heard it or he'da straightened that out real quick. I'll ask the coach tomorrow. I've got him again.

In that case, what a great play on F4's part. My partner never heard it, or he'da taken care of that immediately. I'll ask the coach tomorrow, as I have him again in rec ball tomorrow night.

Little Jimmy - good point. Looks like TexBlue and his partner blew that one.

MichaelVA2000 - Good story that stays on the theme of this thread. My question is: Will you ever, or do you want to - train your self to not make that technically correct, but "O'Sh't" call that is going to give you nothing but grief. In your case, the "expected" call was to shut up and let the play at 1B determine the outcome of the game. Everybody was watching that play at 1B, and you could have had a leisurely stroll to the parking lot, and problably received a good rating.

WMB

I can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what... but anyway, my point was the following...

While I would like to think my personal integrity would not allow post season assignments to influence my calls, in the real world, I will probably never know one way or the other, because during the game, I'm in "the umpire's zone" - meaning all I see during the play is the runner and the fielder, the batter and the pitcher, the offense and the defense. I lose track of which team is which, or what the game situation is. I see the play and make the call.

In your lookback violation on overrunnig first base, I'd make that call, sure.

Given that you disagree with this rule, would YOU make that call?

Some great discussion
 

I posed this same question on the baseball side of things. It didn't generate much discussion. Whatgameyouwatchinblue pretty well shut it off and closed 'er down with his reference to Carl Childress's Worst Calls article.

I intend to stick with the "call what I see" answer and work determinedly to get the best view. It did bite me this last week; got turned back for a district championship game because a childish rookie coach didn't want me to do his game. Okay, I didn't want to argue with him anyway. This was a result of other events and not the ones I initially posed. He's still a putz.

As someone mentioned earlier there is no balance, and I'm not sure there should be, but that coaches can evaluate and choose their desired umpires while us umps just suck-it-up and always try to do our best, surely is not fair. Don't know what is better.

I have noticed that those umpires who always make the expected calls are generally lazy umpires. They don't work to get the best angle and laugh about most of their controversial calls.

Was working two man (with me as PU in their district) with an official from another district last week. With lone runner on 3rd he would stand outside 3rd baseline! He also spent a lot of time standing by the fence talking to the crowd/fans. On this particular play with lone runner at 3rd. Batter gets an infield hit to F6. I see the play developing at 1st but also recognize that R3 may be headed home. I turn to see R3 and here comes partner from the 3rd baselne fence running to a position about 10 feet towards home from 3rd and about 5 feet into foul territory. He nonchalantly smiles and holds a sloppy out call for a very close play at 1st. Never said a word.

That's my partner - for the day only!

I was ready to make every call just in case he didn't show up. Ooh, he's the commissioner's son. And his dad set this low flying level of officiating techniques. The game wasn't close but it was a challenge to rely upon my "partner" for anything. This guy would surely make the expected calls and never have a clue that the expected call could very well be the wrong call. 28 years old, unemployed and working the games daddy assigns him. Aaaaahhhh the undirected youth of America. Can you still call 28 a youth? Well he still acts like one.

Hope I don't get the pleasure of working any state games with him. :)

WMB,

Good question, hopefully I will be able to continue calling plays as I see them and not get into a mode of taking the road of less grief. I don't pick and choose the rules to enforce, I see a violation... I act on it.

Michael

DAKOTA

"can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what..."


My expectations that you would take the high ground is definitely a subtle form of a complement.

"In your lookback violation on overrunnig first base, I'd make that call, sure. Given that you disagree with this rule, would YOU make that call?"


Can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what... Of course I would, for the same reason that you now will make that interference call on a walked B-R outside the 3' lane in a HS game.

My problem is that, being in the "umpire's zone," I would make that call automatically, without seeing or realizing the ramifications of the call. I am struggling with the concept of making the "expected" call, and wondering if I want to, or if I can train myself to make the expected call.

WMB

No, not a slam at all. Just remembering an earlier thread where you editorialized fairly strongly that there was no reason to make such a complicated special case out of the BR overrunning, turning this way or that, and the LBR. I thought, given that, it was interesting that this was one of the plays you chose to drive the discussion.

I've been staying out of this so Mike wouldn't acuse me of injecting my "baseball mentality" into the discussion but I'd like to add this thought that I shared with my oldest daughter on our way to call a game yesterday.

Her statemant begain "If I thiink the runner left early..."

My response was "If you think they left early, that's good baserunning. If you KNOW they left early - Make the call."

My point being, If you are going to enforce an obscure rule in a big situation be sure you have a clear cut violation. Don't make an unexpected call without clear and convincing evidence that the violation has occured!

Roger Greene

Re: Some great discussion
 

Hey DT, you sound a little bitter... :) ...great points though, and I enjoyed this thread...let me know if it's just me, but not many of the issues on this thread really were addressed; maybe there are too many, i donno. But it's not that they weren't addressed, but no resolutions or corrective measures or ideas, etc.

For instance, the one poster says they were struggling to understand the "making or not making of the 'expected' call." Well, maybe it has not been made clear what exactly this is, see what I mean? Cuz this aforementioned issue is a good one, I think. So, anyways, that's my two-bits (I've got more, if needed, though).

I agree with that. I'd go so far as to say you can take the "in a big situation" out of it - it should be a general practice.

Or, putting it more crudely, don't go lookin' fer boogers!

Roger,

I wouldn't do that unless you actually tried to impose that mentality on us :)

I totally agree with you assessment that if you have to "think" about it, you probably shouldn't call it. This goes hand-in-hand with not "guessing" an out.

However, I don't think leaving a base early is an obscure rule. If it is, it's probably because umpires are not calling even when they do see it.

This call has been called late in the NCAA Championships two of the past three years in conjunction with the LBR. I've even had it twice in the past year in SP games.

Yes, Mike. Maybe obscure wasn't the word I should have used. "Technical violation" might be closer, but still doesn't convey excatly what I'm talking about.

Roger Greene

R U Serious DownTownTonyBrown?
 

Should an official really be worrying about a State game when deciding what call to make during a season/district game? Does that official have his/her frame of mind in the right place for the purity of the game? These games are not about the umpire! You need to worry about calling what you see every play no matter what game it is, let the kids decide what happens by the plays they make. ANY TEAM, Any team can beat any other team on any given day so quit worrying about who is the "dominating" team and do your job completely unbiased like we're supposed to.

In regards to your district game with you as the PU, P U pretty much covers it but you failed to mention a few things. Did you disagree with your partner's nonchalant-sloppy out call at 1st or was it the right call? While your partner was talking to the fans/crowd did he not cover your a** on a dropped 3rd strike that you for some reason did not see? Did you stop to think that maybe you couldn't see it because you stand straight up behind the plate instead of getting down so you can see the zone? Heck, maybe no ones ever told you that your zone could improve and setting your eyes at the top of a batter's zone will help you greatly. Then again, perhaps you didn't learn from one of the best commissioner's around. You ought to try getting to know people before making your biased judgements.

Good Luck on improving as an official, you definately need it.

Hey, I may be wrong, but I thought the first letter in the word "JOB" was "J".

uptown must have never worked with ol smitty
he's one lucky s.o.b.

First post ?
 

Welcome to the board UpTown. And what an entrance you've made. Bold and brassy if nothing else... yeah that about covers it - nothing else.

Re: R U Serious DownTownTonyBrown?
 

Okay, I think I owe somebody a response here.

UpTownBG, You brought up several issues that weren't discussed in this thread. I guess there is a possibility that people could put 2 and 2 together and figure what games I was working who my partner was etc. If I offended you I'm sorry; it was not my intention.

In response to your post: I wasn't fretting State assignments during my games. That was part of the question should an official try to make the coaches/fans/players happy by making the expected calls and possibly receive state assignments or should an umpire work diligently to be in position, get the best view of a play, and make the call the way he saw it despite it being an unexpected call/result of what all the other people were anticipating and thereby, possibly not receive state assignments?

My comments about expecting one team to dominate were simple game preparation (what an umpire should expect when he works a game) but it didn't influence my performance during the games (I have discussed situations from 3 separate games in this thread). It was simply used in the note as a way of differentiating one team from the other.

The example of a non-chalant, sloppy call was used as an example of improper, lazy mechanics. Official are not meant to be leaning against the side fences and talking with fans during play. Standing outside the 3rd baseline to make a call at 1st is plainly wrong according to any mechanics I have ever seen or read about. I would also say it is extremely lazy and is not a good position for making a call at 1st. I, as the PU, was closer to the play at 1st. And my reason for reciting this situation was that it has been my experience, that it is umpires with similar mechanics to this play discussed above, that make expected/anticipated calls. Which brings us back to the original question, should an umpire work diligently to get position and make calls that are not expected (that would seem wrong according to everyone's expectations) or should an umpire show, what I would consider, little concern for hustle and positioning and simply make the same calls that all the coaches/fans/players are anticipating to be made? Thus getting good evaluations and possibly state tournament games.

'Was it the right call at 1st base' is not really the issue at all. I think it was, but then that call was not my responsibility and I wasn't in position to make it ... but then as I've noted I don't feel my partner was in a proper position to make the call either.

My stance: a subject not discussed in this thread but brought up by you. Yes, I have started using what I understand as the Gerry Davis stance. I stand nearly straight up and well behind the catcher. It offers a great view of the strike zone, the pitcher, the batter and very minimal opportunity for interference of the that view by either the catcher or the batter. It works very well and I feel it is an improvement in my officiating over my previous 23 years of scrunching down behind the catcher. You might want to try it or at least read up on it before condemning it.

Dropped third strike: another subject I don't believe I discussed in this thread. Although, I did discuss it in another thread. Why anyone would feel this call is solely the plate umpires responsibility and that one umpire saved the others butt is beyond me. But okay. I didn't see the drop - and it was a drop, not a bounce. The ball went directly into the catcher's mitt a foot above the ground and apparently fell out as the runner took off for 1st and as the catcher rose to make her throw. My partner ensured we got the call right - he did a great job. Additionally, there were sustained 40 MPH winds from my partner's back and directly into my face off a dirt infield; it's possible I blinked. 40 MPH is not an exageration; I had sand between my toes after this game - through the opening of my plate shoes and two pairs of socks. It was an extremely ugly day. Inside my shoes was not the only place I had sand/dirt.

As for commissioners: My experience is not vast but probably more than many here - I've worked with 8 different commissioners for baseball and softball. I've learned from all of them - including the commissioner mentioned in this thread. My comments, although I don't feel they were incorrect, were inappropriate. Commissioners are not always the best official in the association nor are they necessarily the best instructor of officiating mechanics.

Again, if I offended you personally, as it appears I did, I appologize profusely. I know I said a couple things that were outside of the topic and probably not appropriate for an open public audience. I will be more careful in the future. I'm sorry to all of you readers - I slighted fellow officials. And that is a no-no. I appologize, to them and to you.

Pseudonym
 

DTTB You are wasting your breath. UpTownBG is probably the pseudonym for BBallCoach (a mole)who most likely has been barred from the forum by the moderators.

Re: Pseudonym
 

Yep, the tone and the rhetoric sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Didn't know BBallCoach got barred, though. Shame, I was kinda getting used to the words scrolling' down the screen.

Re: Re: Pseudonym
 

I don't know if I agree with you two on the identity of this UpTownBG poster or not. He seemed to have a few details about the game from DTTB's post that one couldn't have had they not been there.