Chatter has always been a touchy subject around the leagues I work for and now its even touchier. I was observing a youth game the other day in which the catcher called out the batters name and number(got it from the scorebook) which distracted the hitter and the batter got nailed in the side. Now i know in hs ball they should not be paying attetion to the catcher, but what about youth ball where do you draw the line if you do.
|
in our local league (USSSA) any and all chatter & chanting is OK until the umpire determines it to be "unsportsmanlike", and thats entirely the umpire's judgement. the case you spoke of would have been judged unsportsmanlike - at least i hope it would - and the catcher would have been warned, then restricted to the bench if it happened again.
|
Many of the kids on our youth teams know & socialize with each other away from the fields. Girl-talk among them is fairly common... between catcher & batter, between batter and opposing bench, etc. But, it is pretty easy to tell the difference between mutual gossip / teasing, and disruptive behavior.
What you describe was not mutual, but one-way disruption and was crossing the line. In ASA, there is no provision for restricting to the bench, but since the batter got hit due to the distraction, ejection without warning would have been justified. |
Yes - chatter is a touchy subject. I've been appealed to many times on the "hey batta batta swing" thing in particular.. I dont call that, nor do I consider it unsportsmanlike - this one is a closer one since it is so player specific.
I'm going to disagree with Dakota on this one - as I doubt I would have ejected the catcher. At most a warning to the coach.. AT MOST (if anything at all). I'm picturing the situation.. pitcher getting ready to toss the ball.. catcher talking .. batter says "Huh?" and turns her head and gets beaned. I consider that a "hope you learned your lesson" category. When someone is tossing a missle at you.. pay attention. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I agree that players should be responsible for paying attention to the game at hand. I do not agree with coddling the players in the "it isn't fair" blanket with which many parents like to cover their kids. However, there is no reason, NONE, for a player of one team to address their opponent in anything short of a congenial manner. |
Quote:
A warning is OK, too, so long as no one actually got hurt. |
Quote:
|
I do quite a bit of PONY ball in North Texas, La, and around Austin. Get to go to Harlingen this year. I think that's a province in Mexico, not sure.
Anyway, PONY allows the catcher to talk to the batter. She just can't call her name, number or raise the volume of her voice while the ball is in the air. I've heard everything from "Your shoe's untied" to "Are you the one that's been dating my boyfriend?" This is my favorite as it was asked by a 11 year old catcher who was from about 4 counties over from where the game was. I think it startled me more than the batter. By the time the at-bat was over, I was almost laughing out loud. I even had a catcher for 2 years who barked. She had 4 different barks. Everything from a Chihuaha to a stinkin' Rottweiler. The first time she did the Rottweiler, I jumped and tapped her on the helmet with my clicker and told her to chain that dog up and don't let it out anymore. She giggled and said OK. As long as it's clean, fun spirited and non personal, I let it go. |
Quote:
I'd think about giving the base despite her lack of effort to avoid ;) I agree with TexBlue.. as long as it is not mean spirited - I let it go. |
Nothing wrong with the cheering - Dead Bird (and it's friend Dead Worm), or hey-batta-batta-swing from the infield are fine, and semi-normal. However, catcher using the batters name or even the catcher yelling swing is across my line.
I think the biggest problem here is that there are no REAL rules to go by here, and this area is one of those that will have the widest range of discrepancy from umpire to umpire. |
Quote:
I think 10.9 pretty well covers it. |
I think you are right about the rules.. but I'm not sure how it could be written to clarify it more.
How many allow the catcher to say swing? I have never stopped a catcher doing that. I could be the one who is way to lenient here... One thing I have is allota time behind the plate as a catcher.. and one who talked.. so I always think of how I did it; and I was rarely even warned and never ejected... that may lead to my leniency. A catcher talking smack to some degree is as much a part of the game as anything in my personnal view... I could be off base as I am applying Baseball experience to how the league wants it done in Softball. I've been wrong on this board before and learned.. I can only promise to be wrong in the future! |
Quote:
I dont. Saying a persons name is not insulting or disparaging. A catcher saying swing also does not constitute that. I enforce it in that manner as well. If catcher said "janice you suck" .. that fits.. if they said "janice swing" .. while a little cheap.. it doesnt in and of itself violate 10.9. I would guess you are using the "other" part of that rule to come to the violation.. but enforcing it so strictly doesnt seem to fit in the 1st sentence of that rule. [Edited by wadeintothem on May 3rd, 2004 at 03:06 PM] |
I have always had a no name or number policy. If I hear it I give a warning, to player and coach and it has always solved the problem. I guess I have never had anyone ask me about disallowing it to the point where I would have to give a rule to support it. I see everyones points and you are right in the fact that it is a very large gray area. What I see as unsportsmanlike you might not.
|
10.9 is nice as a starting point, especially if you end up having to argue it with a coach.
However, even with that rule in the book, there is a VERY wide disparity of things allowed/not allowed by various umpires. It can be different from game to game of a doubleheader if the umpires switch spots. I've seen umpires toss a catcher for the mildest, "SWING" on the first offense. I've seen others allow the catcher to say whatever she wants, constantly all game, without any admonishment from the umpire at all (even after requested/suggested by the batting coach). If the book (or at least the casebook) would give us some guidelines, we'd at least be closer in our application of this rule. Something like "Catchers may not verbally attempt to distract the batter" or "Catchers may verbally attempt to distract the batter as long as no profanity (or no names, numbers, etc) is used." Anything to give somewhat of a guideline. |
Let's go back to the obstruction rule (the defense impeding the offense) and the possibility of it being verbal, then apply that to the examples above.
|
Quote:
I still say Rule 10.9, works well with a little common sense and temperment. I cannot help it and rules should not be rewritten because some umpires get overzealous in the rules as they perceive them. We see that on these boards on a regular basis. Rant on! It's just like these guys who meet for ground rules and offer a littany of do's and don'ts for THEIR game. Well, guess what fellas? It isn't YOUR game. It's a game which you are working for someone else. We've had people on this board ready and willing to throw kids out of the game for not controlling their bat, but it's okay to scream at the opponent as long as it isn't nasty. Give me a break. What is nasty, dirty or profanity? Should there be a list? Maybe George Carlin can develop one for us. It's not the words, but the context and manner in which they are used. If it is obvious that the action and words cannot be meant for anything other than affecting the opponent's play, then it is unsportsmanlike conduct (rule 10.9). Hopefully, we are not out there trying to impose a particular social value of zero tolerance on others whom perceive nothing is wrong, thus we give warnings. If you are a player on a field which I am working, you can say just about anything you want as long as it isn't directed at or about the umpire or opponent. I don't even get upset if a player curses as I DON'T CARE if it is not directed at or about me, my partner or the opponent. I will request the player(s) to keep it down. I may even go to the coach for help. I am not going to eject them. If I do, it's because they turned on me when I asked them to quiet down. What I will not put up with is an out of control game. As noted before, the disparity among the umpire's opinions is huge. However, the impact of some words varies immensely depending upon the person using it, where they are from, where they are standing at the time along with the same conditions applied to the person to which the word is directed. Who determines what is permissible and what is not? ****ing, frigging, fricking, humping, boinking, boffing, screwing. All words used to describe one particular sexual act, yet some are allowed and others are not. What makes one word worse than the other if they all project the same image? I have seen umpires toss players for virtually inaudible general mumblings just because they "thought" it could have been profanity. I'm not the language police or social director, I'm the umpire. I work the game being played on the field. I WILL keep control of that game regardless of the manner in which the players act. Rant off! Sorry, got a bit carried away, but have no problem with it. |
Rick,
<b>I even had a catcher for 2 years who barked. She had 4 different barks. Everything from a Chihuaha to a stinkin' Rottweiler. The first time she did the Rottweiler."</b> We had one of those in Houston last year. I think she was from the Austin area. With Storm. She eventually had everyone barking to see who was the best. She did her act mostly from the stands. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Meanwhile.. after 1 1/2 hours of the loudest 12U girls tonight, hey batta batta, and every chant you can imagine.. several particularly whiney coachs (on each side) appealing everything .. including attempting to invent a few rules of their own.. and even a score keep who complained a girl left the bag early on a steal.. I have returned barely scared for life and without any ejections.. I agree with mikes post 100%.... and while it certianly wasnt me having fun tonight... some kids were and I guess thats what counts. |
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51pm. |