The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Softball (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/)
-   -   Sure wish it hadn't happened ....... (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/13286-sure-wish-hadnt-happened.html)

TexBlue Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:50pm

I was calling in the TAAF State Championships this last weekend. Was the PU on the game to decide who gets 3rd place and who goes on to the championship game.

Bottom of the 7th inning, home team down by 1 run, runner on 3rd, 2 outs. The batter hits a little blooper right over the pitcher's head, between pitcher and 2nd base. I immediately run about 3 steps to my left and in, to make the call on the catch and still being able to watch the runner coming home. I'm in perfect position to see the catch. The catch will be a forward running, bent over to the ground catch. Just as the F4 and and the ball get to the same place, the pitcher swerves to her left and blocks me out of the play. I was almost certain I could tell the ball was going to short hop the glove. I give my safe signal and look at the runner coming home and see her step on the plate. I immediately look at my partner, who was in C and coming in for a possible play at 1st. I instantly call time and go to him, asking for help. He looks pretty sick and said he had a great view of the play, right up to the time the shortstop side stepped into his view and blocked him. So, no help there, he didn't see a thing. All I could do was explain to both coaches what happened and call the BR safe and play ball, the run scores. Needless to say, I caught a lot of grief over this and I had to take it, just to let them get it our of their system and since it was my call. I am pretty certain the ball was caught, after listening to the crowd and the coaches immeiately after the play was made. Apparently the only 2 people who were blocked out on the play were the only 2 people who could make a call. The Home team won the game on the next hit, a triple that scored the runner who should have been out.

This makes my list of the "Top 5 Plays I Wished I Wasn't Involved In."

kellerumps Mon Apr 19, 2004 01:27pm

Just curious, but why weren't you working 3-Person on a game that important?

I have a saying to coaches or administrators on a call like that....."Coach, that was (Insert game fee amount) call." When they look at you funny, explain that the 3rd official would have been on top of that call.

In your case, both base umpires would have been "Home" on that play with each having a GREAT LOOK thru the play. Truely a game fee call if ever there was one.

TexBlue Mon Apr 19, 2004 01:34pm

They were saving the 3-man for the Championship game. All the others were 2-man.

Skahtboi Mon Apr 19, 2004 02:08pm

A lot of the TD's and UIC's I work for have learned the value of the three man crew in these cases. I was working a tournament this weekend where the last loser's bracket game as well as the championship and and "if" game were all three man crews. I am seeing this a lot more often than I did four or five years ago.

SWFLguy Mon Apr 19, 2004 02:10pm

All the more reason for the 3rd umpire
when you get into the play-offs !!
I'm boning up on 3-umpire mechanics
for next week's regionals here in SW FL.

IRISHMAFIA Mon Apr 19, 2004 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by kellerumps
Just curious, but why weren't you working 3-Person on a game that important?

I have a saying to coaches or administrators on a call like that....."Coach, that was (Insert game fee amount) call." When they look at you funny, explain that the 3rd official would have been on top of that call.

In your case, both base umpires would have been "Home" on that play with each having a GREAT LOOK thru the play. Truely a game fee call if ever there was one.

While a third umpire MAY have helped, no guarantee, and the statement could have been somewhat accurate, I find it a bit unprofessional to throw that in the face of the coaches. After all, they didn't schedule the umpires.

The explanation that you and your partner bothed move to the prescribed position and were blocked by the defensive players should suffice. You let the coach have a few non-personal words and then sit them down. If THEY bring up the importance of another official or feel compelled to take their complaint to the next level, they should be referred to the AD, TD, Assignor or whoever is responsible for the administration of the tournament.




kellerumps Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:35pm

You are correct...There are no Guarantee's, but I will take my chances on a 3 person crew getting that call correct over a 2 person crew.

As for my comment....In our area, we don't have assigners(Non College). At (ASA) tournaments, we will have UIC's and a assigner but if the coaches/clubs want something, then they will find a way to get it done. Have I made that comment to a coach? Yes...Only after the game when I was confronted. Next year, we had 3 umpires.

<b>Begin Rant</b>

The game of FP Softball has progressed beyond the 2-Person Umpire System. I believe that not enough is being done to promote and implement 3-Umpires at the higher levels of play. Last year at the ASA 14-U National in Bloomington/Normal Il, we used 3 for everything beyond Pool Play. This year, I believe ASA is going back to 2 umpires except for the Semi-Finals On. Why?

Does it cost more? Yes. Does it require some more training? Yes. Does it require some coaches to learn something different about umpires? Yes.

We are fortunate in that we work the majority of our games in the 3 Umpire system. It's to the point where we are almost uncomfortable working the 2 umpire system. We can do it, but would prefer not to.

If money is an issue, I bet that people would be surprised at the number of us that would accept a lower game fee in return for working with 3. Further, I believe teams would be willing to pay a higher entry fee if they know 3-Umps will be used.

I will get off my soap box now......I just whole heartedly believe in the 3-Umpire System. The players and coaches are working too hard these days and they deserve the very best we have to offer. In many cases, that will require 3 of us on the field.

<b>End Rant</b>

[Edited by kellerumps on Apr 19th, 2004 at 11:37 PM]

FUBLUE Tue Apr 20, 2004 01:17am

IF I were a coach on this board, I would say that three out of shape, fat, slow umpires would STILL miss the call because the other umpire wouldn't have been watching anyway...but I'm not. I'd work with (and for) any of you any day of the week...and twice on the weekends.

That being said, sometimes we DO get blocked out by players...2 umpire system is based on getting angles on calls. Sometimes we just get blocked. No ones fault, but an unfortunate situation when it happens.

The two umpire system can be used more efficiently than it is used now. Several of the umpires I regularly work with will change things up to use the system better. THe only problem is that we ONLY change it up with each other...because we trust each other, and know each other will be there if needed.

In that situation you describe TexBlue, maybe we should pole the coaches. Each coach gets one vote. I would tend to estimate a tie in this case...offensive coach votes no catch, defensive coach votes catch. Maybe we should go to the fans for their opinions. They all had a really good view of it (which may be true, since they were probably at least a few feet up in the air so they were not blocked---except by the fence, the guy in front of them, their son who wanted to go to the bathroom, the soda can, the "heat" from the nacho cheese...and an umpire and two defensive players). I wonder how they would vote?

We can't guess an out, so if we don't see it, we don't call it.




IRISHMAFIA Tue Apr 20, 2004 06:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by kellerumps

The game of FP Softball has progressed beyond the 2-Person Umpire System. I believe that not enough is being done to promote and implement 3-Umpires at the higher levels of play. Last year at the ASA 14-U National in Bloomington/Normal Il, we used 3 for everything beyond Pool Play. This year, I believe ASA is going back to 2 umpires except for the Semi-Finals On. Why?

Because there are not enough qualified umpires.
Quote:


Does it cost more? Yes.
Yes, it does cost more and the UIC is not the person paying for the umpires, the tournament host does. ALL slow pitch NT/NC games have been reduced to 2-umpire games for one purpose: save the hosts money.

Quote:

We are fortunate in that we work the majority of our games in the 3 Umpire system. It's to the point where we are almost uncomfortable working the 2 umpire system. We can do it, but would prefer not to.
Maybe in your area, not everywhere. It has gotten to the point around here that JV HS games are lucky to get ONE umpire. The bodies just aren't available. ASA umpire registration has dropped nearly 28% over the past fifteen years. Meanwhile, the youth program has gone through the roof and the adult SP programs still carry non-scholastic softball throughout the country.

Quote:

If money is an issue, I bet that people would be surprised at the number of us that would accept a lower game fee in return for working with 3. Further, I believe teams would be willing to pay a higher entry fee if they know 3-Umps will be used.
I bet you are wrong in parts of the country. It seems you assume that because something works in your area, it must be true everywhere. It's not.

Unfortunately, we have as many "greens" nowadays than we have blues. It is also unfortunate that the local/state/metros cannot necessarily do without them and cover the games being played.

Part of that reason is people like the S.F.B. above. If I had one umpire for every ten times I've heard, "No way, you guys get too much crap. Why would I want to do that?" from a person I'm attempting to recruit as an umpires, I wouldn't have a need for more umpires.

Quote:

I will get off my soap box now......I just whole heartedly believe in the 3-Umpire System. The players and coaches are working too hard these days and they deserve the very best we have to offer. In many cases, that will require 3 of us on the field.

They may work hard, but that doesn't mean their organizations are willing to pay the price. We routinely have softball clubs request umpires, but don't want to pay the standard rate for this area. But, not everything gets fixed by throwing money at it. If it did, some of this softball leagues and organizations wouldn't survive.


FUBLUE Tue Apr 20, 2004 07:33am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]
Quote:

Originally posted by kellerumps



Maybe in your area, not everywhere. It has gotten to the point around here that JV HS games are lucky to get ONE umpire. The bodies just aren't available. ASA umpire registration has dropped nearly 28% over the past fifteen years. Meanwhile, the youth program has gone through the roof and the adult SP programs still carry non-scholastic softball throughout the country.



I work for an association...we have 175 umpires that are considered ACTIVE...meaning they work games. But not all of them work more than 2 nights a week...some for work conflicts, but mostly, from what I gather, because they don't want to call every night. That's fine, but to me, they shouldn't whine when they don't get the "primo" games...reward those who help the program, right?

In a "previous association" the assignor would assign two people to two different games. Then he would call each umpire up and say, "I'm sending so and so to this school instead of working with you. I'll find a replacement." And, low and behold, you get to the game and you work it by yourself. Of course, you get "double pay" but I'd rather have a partner than work a varsity game by myself...which is what we ended up doing quite often for this association.

Skahtboi Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:27am

I agree that the issue with working a 3 man crew on most FP games has less to do with money and more to do with lack of qualified manpower. I am sure that Mike's statistics on the drop in umpiring over the last few years are accurate, as there seem to be less and less people wanting to get into the avocation. And even when you do get some new recruits, retaining them is next to impossible. How many times have we seen a promising recruit not come back for their sophomore year? I know that of the rookies that my HS chapter had last year, only about 15% returned for year two. I think what we really need to address is how to better retain our umpires.

Has this thread now taking a substantial enough twist? :D

FUBLUE Tue Apr 20, 2004 01:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Skahtboi
I agree that the issue with working a 3 man crew on most FP games has less to do with money and more to do with lack of qualified manpower. I am sure that Mike's statistics on the drop in umpiring over the last few years are accurate, as there seem to be less and less people wanting to get into the avocation. And even when you do get some new recruits, retaining them is next to impossible. How many times have we seen a promising recruit not come back for their sophomore year? I know that of the rookies that my HS chapter had last year, only about 15% returned for year two. I think what we really need to address is how to better retain our umpires.

So how do we solve the problem? As what our association considers a veteran (I'm 30, but have done ball for 11 years) I tend to get partnered with the new guys...so I not only have to umpire, but I have to teach while umpiring, and cover for him/her if he/she screws up. I've actually proposed a UIC type of thing...where someone goes and evaluates new umpires, give them pointers, etc. OUr association uses a mentorship program, but it's nothing formal...no structure...just someone to call if you have any questions. Maybe we should use the mentor as a coach...once a week, just go and watch a game with a new umpire. I don't know the solution.

What do all of you do?

TexBlue Tue Apr 20, 2004 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Skahtboi


Has this thread now taking a substantial enough twist? :D

Yeah, this thing kinda developed a life of it's own and took off running, didn't it.

TexBlue Tue Apr 20, 2004 04:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by FUBLUE

So how do we solve the problem? As what our association considers a veteran (I'm 30, but have done ball for 11 years) I tend to get partnered with the new guys...so I not only have to umpire, but I have to teach while umpiring, and cover for him/her if he/she screws up. I've actually proposed a UIC type of thing...where someone goes and evaluates new umpires, give them pointers, etc. OUr association uses a mentorship program, but it's nothing formal...no structure...just someone to call if you have any questions. Maybe we should use the mentor as a coach...once a week, just go and watch a game with a new umpire. I don't know the solution.

What do all of you do? [/B]
Our group tries to keep the 1st year guys with one of about nine umpires who are really good at developing new folks for the 1st 3 weeks. After that, they have been exposed to the basics and are turned loose with the rest of the guys. We also have classes from the middle of January to the end of February. We also see the guys on the weekend and answer question and tell war stories and debate (rather loudly) rules and situations. All the guys know they can call me anytime or email me and I'll get back fairly quickly to them. I've noticed the quality of the 0-3 year guys has improved a lot and we seem to be retaining a lot more of the new guys.

BBallCoach Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:20pm

This is awful
 
TexUmp,

As a coach I'm very disheartened to read your post about at championship game and you being screened on a play that impacts the outcome of the game. That is you job to physically move so you can see the play. Your going to tell me these girls were Shaq's size and you in your great athletic shape could not simply get around them or get there quickly enough to see the play. That is an injustice to all of those players on both teams that our out there busting their butts trying to win and the officials that are hired to give the kids the best game possible choke like that. If I was the coach I would have had many words with you and am disgusted by your lack of professionalism and ability to simply be in shape and move to the play. This is dishearting and I dont know how you sleep having taken the game away from the kids.


IRISHMAFIA Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:47pm

Re: This is awful
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
TexUmp,

As a coach I'm very disheartened to read your post about at championship game and you being screened on a play that impacts the outcome of the game. That is you job to physically move so you can see the play. Your going to tell me these girls were Shaq's size and you in your great athletic shape could not simply get around them or get there quickly enough to see the play. That is an injustice to all of those players on both teams that our out there busting their butts trying to win and the officials that are hired to give the kids the best game possible choke like that. If I was the coach I would have had many words with you and am disgusted by your lack of professionalism and ability to simply be in shape and move to the play. This is dishearting and I dont know how you sleep having taken the game away from the kids.


Didn't we already hear from this S.F.B. idiot before?

Dakota Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:33pm

Re: Re: This is awful
 
Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Didn't we already hear from this S.F.B. idiot before?
Apparently he's attempting to restate what he said before in a slightly different words. Maybe if we give him a couple dozen more attempts he'll make some sense.

Nah...

Skahtboi Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:08am

You know, part of me wants to respond to his idiocy, but I realize that it would be useless!

Robmoz Fri Apr 23, 2004 10:54am

Whoa there BBallCoach.......slow the train down.

To presume that this Blue was out of position due to poor skills, sub-par mechanics, or failure to adhere to the Atkins Diet is simply ignorant on your part.

It IS quite possible that the sight line was interrupted at that one crucial moment which would have enabled a clear cut call. It is EVEN possible that a bug could have gotten in his eye as he ran to position himself to make the call. Certainly there are many things that could happen to the best of the best that would cause an unfortunate situation. Stuff happens.

Perhaps you need to step back into reality here and re-assess your perceptions. Perhaps the situation could center around the weight challenged, slow-moving pitcher for getting in the way. Or maybe it was the due to the fielders untimely decision to pick her nose during the delivery of the pitch that caused her to get a late jump on the ball that she would otherwise have camped under to catch. Maybe, just maybe this whole problem was due a freak alignment of the planets that created a gravitational force so strong as to cause the play to develop the way it did. Hmmmmm, I guess it could have been a myriad of things.

Next time you want to paint it on thick by using all of those derogatory comments be sure to remember that as humans were are all fallible.

Those who can - umpire. Those who can't - coach. Have a nice day Coach!

Andy Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:30am

Robmoz - This person is an idiot. He posts just to see if he can get a rise out of someone. It's called trolling.

BBall Coach - the board for you:

http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline

Robmoz Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:32am

I see that now. I will take that into consideration in the future but I just wanted to respond one time.

BBallCoach Fri Apr 23, 2004 03:31pm

You let the kids down
 
Tex Blue,

This is plain and simple you let all of those young athletes done by not being able to do your job. You can have whatever excuse in the world for why you could not get into position without getting screened. Bottom line is you failed in your job and that is something you need to deal with.

<I>BBallCoach,
Our errors hurt ourselves more than you can imagine.

Please feel free to contribute or to ask questions, but avoid the subtle, personal attacks regarding situations beyond anyone's control.

If you cannot be part of the solution, please don't be an additional problem.

mick</I>

[Edited by mick on Apr 23rd, 2004 at 05:21 PM]

TexBlue Fri Apr 23, 2004 05:38pm

Well, BBAll coach, all I can say is I move as much as anyone I have ever called with and am proud of my efforts to always be in the correct position for a call. I was this time. The pitcher just veered off and blocked it in the last instant. Until you've been there, you probably won't understand how it can happen.

I can also understand your comments, to an extent. As I stated before, when you posted and it disappeared, I've already heard all that and listened to all of it, due to the fact I wasn't happy about the decision. Not because I was too lazy or big or whatever else you care to throw out there, but because, to me, it is about the kids and the game and I love calling it. I have no doubt there are a lot of "masters" on this board. I would enjoy calling with any of them. I think, when it's all said and done, they would enjoy calling with me. I've never had an umpire request to not have me again, or HS coaches, or regular coaches. Yeah, I feel pretty good about myself as an umpire and yeah, I don't feel good about what happened, it stinks. But, it happened with me on the field and there's nothing I can do to change it now. For your information, the next team to play's coach and 2 other coaches were watching the game and they actually helped walk us off the field. They were asking some questions and I gave the answers I gave here. They just commented that that was all you could do. All 3 of these guys have had me before and they enjoy it when I'm on the field. Same with my partner that day.

By the way, if you're gonna rip into me like a coach, at least use the correct words in the correct spots, so us dumb blues can follow the drift of the conversation, OK?

IRISHMAFIA Sat Apr 24, 2004 08:43am

Re: You let the kids down
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Tex Blue,

This is plain and simple you let all of those young athletes done by not being able to do your job. You can have whatever excuse in the world for why you could not get into position without getting screened. Bottom line is you failed in your job and that is something you need to deal with.


That's right.

Rick, you suck. We all suck! We shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a softball field. We should all be taken and hung by our thumbs over a pit of alligators until we learn to get every call, 100% correct just like the way every coach calls their game.

We are pitiful to even think that we are one tenth as good and intelligent as our good friend, "BBall Coach". He is just doing us a favor by telling us how we are the scum of the earth and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children unless we can call a perfect game like he coaches.

It makes me sick to think this troll may actually be out there passing this type of attitude on to the youth of our nation. "Don't worry, nothing is your fault. The referee sucks and doesn't care that he just ruined your life!"

And we wonder how some of the kids today get drawn into the "dark side" (and I'm not talking baseball, here) and end up blowing things up, killing people and eventually themselves.

Mike

Skahtboi Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:44am

Just remember Mike, its not his fault he's the way he is!

CecilOne Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:

Originally posted by kellerumps

The game of FP Softball has progressed beyond the 2-Person Umpire System. I believe that not enough is being done to promote and implement 3-Umpires at the higher levels of play. Last year at the ASA 14-U National in Bloomington/Normal Il, we used 3 for everything beyond Pool Play. This year, I believe ASA is going back to 2 umpires except for the Semi-Finals On. Why?

Because there are not enough qualified umpires.

My phone number is ...

CecilOne Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:38pm

Can we ignore the hassling and get back to what started to be an intelligent discussion of recruiting, retaining, etc. umpires?
BTW, let's follow the "keller" (admittedly personal) example and use 3-person or 3-umpire instead of 3-man. How about 3U?

We might not end up with more umpires, but the retention rate would be better if we gave more attention to getting new ones out of green mode and getting them to realize they will bring abuse on themselves by lack of preparation and lack of professionalism. That, in turn, might reduce the negativism of those who turn away because of the abuse they see while playing or watching. The bigger problem is the laziness and self-centered life style of the younger generations and I have no answer for that. But that is killing the sport and other participant sports as well, so maybe we won't be needed in 20 years.

TexBlue Sat Apr 24, 2004 04:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Tex Blue,

This is plain and simple you let all of those young athletes done by not being able to do your job. You can have whatever excuse in the world for why you could not get into position without getting screened. Bottom line is you failed in your job and that is something you need to deal with.


That's right.

Rick, you suck.
Mike

OK, ya got me. I choked on my tea when I read the 1st sentence. From now on, I'll just put the glass down, read the post, pick the glass back up and reflect upon what was said. I hate cleaning up messes like that. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/thumb.gif

Actually, I was calling a real small tournament last night, before all the storms blew in and walked onto the field. Guess who was on defense. The team that got the raw end of the deal. I did a double take, almost started to run, then decided, what the heck, get it over with. At the plate, the coach even talked about it, said she understood and there wasn't anything I could do. Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.

Dakota Sat Apr 24, 2004 04:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne
Can we ignore the hassling and get back to what started to be an intelligent discussion of recruiting, retaining, etc. umpires?
BTW, let's follow the "keller" (admittedly personal) example and use 3-person or 3-umpire instead of 3-man. How about 3U?

We might not end up with more umpires, but the retention rate would be better if we gave more attention to getting new ones out of green mode and getting them to realize they will bring abuse on themselves by lack of preparation and lack of professionalism. That, in turn, might reduce the negativism of those who turn away because of the abuse they see while playing or watching. The bigger problem is the laziness and self-centered life style of the younger generations and I have no answer for that. But that is killing the sport and other participant sports as well, so maybe we won't be needed in 20 years.

Heck, Cecil, we can't get our leagues to move away from 1 man.

IRISHMAFIA Sat Apr 24, 2004 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue


OK, ya got me. I choked on my tea when I read the 1st sentence. From now on, I'll just put the glass down, read the post, pick the glass back up and reflect upon what was said. I hate cleaning up messes like that.

Rick,

Sorry about the mess. "Getting you" wasn't my intention, but that doesn't mean I didn't laugh when I read you post :)


whiskers_ump Sat Apr 24, 2004 09:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue
Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Tex Blue,

This is plain and simple you let all of those young athletes done by not being able to do your job. You can have whatever excuse in the world for why you could not get into position without getting screened. Bottom line is you failed in your job and that is something you need to deal with.


That's right.

Rick, you suck.
Mike

OK, ya got me. I choked on my tea when I read the 1st sentence. From now on, I'll just put the glass down, read the post, pick the glass back up and reflect upon what was said. I hate cleaning up messes like that. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/thumb.gif

Actually, I was calling a real small tournament last night, before all the storms blew in and walked onto the field. Guess who was on defense. The team that got the raw end of the deal. I did a double take, almost started to run, then decided, what the heck, get it over with. At the plate, the coach even talked about it, said she understood and there wasn't anything I could do. Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.

Rick,
We got the storms before noon here today. I got in two games
of an AFA Advancement tournament.

Glad I read all Mikes post also. Knew it was not like him to blast
a fellow blue. Coach, maybe. :D


Skahtboi Sat Apr 24, 2004 09:21pm

I feel like I am at the first of the HS season with the weather being the way it is. Last night, had a team playing that if they won, they would be in a tie in their district for first place. So you know that they were determined to get this game in. During the second inning, a heavy wave of rain moved in. Fortunately, the home team had a tarp which they quickly got out on the infield. We all waited about thirty minutes for the rains to pass, and proceeded with the game. Got it in, and the team that won will be in a tiebreaker game on Monday. We started the JV almost immediately after that, and just got to the top of the second before lightning and rain forced us to call it off. Now I have lost a college game this morning, and several tournament games tonight and tomorrow. Sigh....

TexBlue Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Skahtboi
I feel like I am at the first of the HS season with the weather being the way it is. Last night, had a team playing that if they won, they would be in a tie in their district for first place. So you know that they were determined to get this game in. During the second inning, a heavy wave of rain moved in. Fortunately, the home team had a tarp which they quickly got out on the infield. We all waited about thirty minutes for the rains to pass, and proceeded with the game. Got it in, and the team that won will be in a tiebreaker game on Monday. We started the JV almost immediately after that, and just got to the top of the second before lightning and rain forced us to call it off. Now I have lost a college game this morning, and several tournament games tonight and tomorrow. Sigh....
Now, see, that's what ya get for calling in Dallas County. The little tournament I was talking about got a little over 3 inches of rain last night and today. I got a call about 9:45 tonight, they're playing tomorrow starting at 11:00. I'm taking my flippers and snorkel, just in case.

whiskers_ump Sun Apr 25, 2004 08:51pm

Rick,

Checked my rain gague at 6:30 PM (sunday) and had 4 1/4"
since Saturday when rains started about 10:30AM. Hope
rains go away. Have two playoff games this week. One
3A and one 4A.

TexBlue Sun Apr 25, 2004 09:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Rick,

Checked my rain gague at 6:30 PM (sunday) and had 4 1/4"
since Saturday when rains started about 10:30AM. Hope
rains go away. Have two playoff games this week. One
3A and one 4A.

Hey, good luck with them. It's supposed to clear out here tomorrow morning. Of course, there's more some more bad boys movin' in from the Panhandle right now.

Have a blast in the playoffs!!!

FUBLUE Mon Apr 26, 2004 01:45pm

Nice weather
 
It's a balmy 63 degrees today...partly cloudy/mostly sunny. Perfect softball weather.

GaryBarrentine Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:27am

Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

IRISHMAFIA Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryBarrentine
Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

#1 The UIC doesn't have the authority to change this call;
#2 I don't care who has what, it is a judgment call;
#3 The UIC doesn't have the authority to change this call;
#4 Instant replay is not available at all angles of all games, therefore, is not a source of reference.
#5 The UIC doesn't have the authority to change this call;
#6 As the UIC, I don't have the authority to change this call.

etc., etc., etc.

Now we can hear all the idiots who want us to ignore the rule book for the sake of the players. They must believe it is possible as many coaches teach their players to circumvent the rules on a regular basis.

BTW, did I happen to mention the UIC doesn't have the authority to change this call?




Dakota Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryBarrentine
Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

No, I have no objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD. Why would I object to a parent wasting their time (and the UIC's / TD's - unless I'm the UIC or TD, that is!)

The UIC cannot change this call. (Is there an echo in here... or maybe it's just deja vu... I seem to have a feeling that I've heard that before ...)

Skahtboi Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:43pm

You know, I think there is some sort of a theme running through this particular thread! :D

FUBLUE Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Quote:

Originally posted by GaryBarrentine
Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

No, I have no objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD. Why would I object to a parent wasting their time (and the UIC's / TD's - unless I'm the UIC or TD, that is!)

The UIC cannot change this call. (Is there an echo in here... or maybe it's just deja vu... I seem to have a feeling that I've heard that before ...)

As an umpire, I'd like to see the play again, to be sure that I was wrong (or right).

Had a coach last year argue a bang-bang out call at the plate on a swipe tag...he told me I was wrong (very professionally, I might add). He still won the game, though. I was at his place the next week, he came to me and said, "so and so's dad had it on video, and you were right...she did tag the runner right before the runner hit the base...good call." Then he proceeded to add, "Tell me you were guessing."

I wish I could have viewed the tape, to be sure I was right.

Sometimes when I UIC I videotape umpires to show them positioning and such...I also take digital pictures so I can reference them later and send them to umpires. Seems to work.

And the UIC doesn't have the authority to overturn the call (in case no one has said this before).

IRISHMAFIA Tue Apr 27, 2004 02:43pm

I wouldn't mind seeing it replayed, either. But not during or immediately after the game.

As a UIC, I have had people stick cameras in my face showing me that the umpire kicked a call. After I push them away from my face, I explain that I will not review the play, period. I do not like to waste time and absolutely nothing positive can come from me reviewing a play.

I also explain that the next thing they are ignorant enough to shove in front of my face may be the last time they see that article.


TexBlue Tue Apr 27, 2004 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by GaryBarrentine
Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

Can I put my two cents in here? I admitted to both coaches what happened. I admitted I may have been wrong, but I couldn't change it, because there was no other evidence to back up a reversal, except for my hunch that I had the wrong call. Which, under the circumstances, was the only call I could make.

Now, as for the UIC reversing my call. As soon as he/she comes on my field, I will consider that a request to borrow my clicker, mask and shin guards. If I know him, I'll let him/her have them. I will not call ball for a UIC who walks on my field and pulls the rug out from under me. Is seems like I read it somewhere, but the UIC cannot change my call. If he comes out there, he/she has taken all the authority away from the umpiring team that he/she put on the field. I would expect my gear back by the end of the night, when he/she brought it to my house.

mick Tue Apr 27, 2004 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue
Quote:

Originally posted by GaryBarrentine
Quote:

Of course, it helped that one of the parents had a digital recording of the whole play from behind the plate. They were all fine and we had a good time before the rain ruined it.
So, TexBlue or anyone else, would you have had any objection to the parent taking the recording to the UIC or TD to get the call corrected?

GaryB

Can I put my two cents in here? I admitted to both coaches what happened. I admitted I may have been wrong, but I couldn't change it, because there was no other evidence to back up a reversal, except for my hunch that I had the wrong call. Which, under the circumstances, was the only call I could make.

Now, as for the UIC reversing my call. As soon as he/she comes on my field, I will consider that a request to borrow my clicker, mask and shin guards. If I know him, I'll let him/her have them. I will not call ball for a UIC who walks on my field and pulls the rug out from under me. Is seems like I read it somewhere, but the UIC cannot change my call. If he comes out there, he/she has taken all the authority away from the umpiring team that he/she put on the field. I would expect my gear back by the end of the night, when he/she brought it to my house.

Rick,
I agree.
Humility and humiliation are years apart.
mick

whiskers_ump Tue Apr 27, 2004 07:01pm

Just have to do it...

Has anyone said this before....

:<b>The UIC does not have the authority to change the call.</b>

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/joker.gif

IRISHMAFIA Tue Apr 27, 2004 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue


Can I put my two cents in here?

Only if you understand that the UIC cannot change this call.

Quote:

I admitted to both coaches what happened. I admitted I may have been wrong, but I couldn't change it, because there was no other evidence to back up a reversal, except for my hunch that I had the wrong call. Which, under the circumstances, was the only call I could make.

Now, as for the UIC reversing my call. As soon as he/she comes on my field, I will consider that a request to borrow my clicker, mask and shin guards. If I know him, I'll let him/her have them. I will not call ball for a UIC who walks on my field and pulls the rug out from under me. Is seems like I read it somewhere, but the UIC cannot change my call. If he comes out there, he/she has taken all the authority away from the umpiring team that he/she put on the field. I would expect my gear back by the end of the night, when he/she brought it to my house.
At the upper levels, I don't think you would have to worry about that happening. Every national which I have worked, it was common knowledge that the last place the UIC wanted to be seen was on the field. If a call was not protestable, you don't call for the UIC. What others do is their problem.

As a UIC, I don't want to go onto the field, but I have no problem going out there if necessary. I will go to the field on someone else's request, but I will not enter the field of play unless there is a valid protest and the umpires ask me to step onto the field.

The one thing that I want all umpires to realize is that once the UIC does enter the field, give them every bit of information available whether you think it is pertinent or not. The UIC is going to make a decision, either in support of the crew or the protesting team. However, the last thing the UIC needs is to make that ruling based on the information the umpires provided and then come to find out there was a serious omission.


FUBLUE Tue Apr 27, 2004 07:26pm

TexBlue,

If I came across as saying I would videotape them for the purpose of overturning calls, that's not what I do. I like to video tape for educational purposes (that's the teacher in me coming out) especially for younger umpires.

I'm not saying that I do it is the right way, but when I am UIC, and hear that nasty seven letter word "PROTEST" I talk to the umpires and the umpires only. I get the information from the play at least two times, and I also walk through it with them the way I understand it. Knock on wood, I've never had to rule in favor of the protesting team...always turned out to be the right call (only 1 protest).


TexBlue Tue Apr 27, 2004 09:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue


Can I put my two cents in here?

Only if you understand that the UIC cannot change this call.


OK, I meant to say this on my last post, but I got so in involved with the idea of a UIC walking on to my field w/o a protest (which could not be valid in this case, as it was judgement) that I forgot. But......

<b> <u> <i> <font:15> A UIC cannot overrule a call. </b> </i> </u> </font:15>

Now, that I've gotten that off my chest, I have never had a problem with a coach protesting my rule interpretation. I'm usually kinda amused at the idea. Bring it on. I've only had 7 protests in my career, lost none of them. But this is the only time I feel a UIC is necessary on my field. If they show up any other time, I feel it is a statement that I cannot control the game and, if this is the case, I need to leave the premises. Because, I gurantee ya, I won't be able to control the game <b> after </B> they leave the field.

[Edited by TexBlue on Apr 27th, 2004 at 10:55 PM]

FUBLUE Wed Apr 28, 2004 06:54am

Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue
Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Quote:

Originally posted by TexBlue


Can I put my two cents in here?

Only if you understand that the UIC cannot change this call.


OK, I meant to say this on my last post, but I got so in involved with the idea of a UIC walking on to my field w/o a protest (which could not be valid in this case, as it was judgement) that I forgot. But......

<b> <u> <i> <font:15> A UIC cannot overrule a call. </b> </i> </u> </font:15>

And I agree...

A UIC cannot change this call...it's a judgment call, right?

In the tournaments I've been UIC, I never overturn a call (never had to, always a judgment thing the coach was trying to protest). And you're right, if a UIC DOES overturn a call on the field, then they've completely undermined the umpires "perceived authority" for that game, and maybe the whole tournament.

Now, that I've gotten that off my chest, I have never had a problem with a coach protesting my rule interpretation. I'm usually kinda amused at the idea. Bring it on. I've only had 7 protests in my career, lost none of them. But this is the only time I feel a UIC is necessary on my field. If they show up any other time, I feel it is a statement that I cannot control the game and, if this is the case, I need to leave the premises. Because, I gurantee ya, I won't be able to control the game <b> after </B> they leave the field.

[Edited by TexBlue on Apr 27th, 2004 at 10:55 PM]


BBallCoach Thu Apr 29, 2004 08:58pm

Tex Blue,

I give you credit you admit you kicked it. Now realize all of those kids you let down, because you failed in your job, but at least you admit it and will hustle harder next time.


MichaelVA2000 Thu Apr 29, 2004 09:34pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBallCoach
[B]Tex Blue,

I give you credit you admit you kicked it. Now realize all of those kids you let down, because you failed in your job, but at least you admit it and will hustle harder next time.

BBallCoach,

Kinda reminds me about all the times when a game could have ended on a routine pop fly or routine grounder to the infield where the player chokes and now the game becomes tied and we go into extra innings.

Wouldn't you agree, that if the coach had been doing his/her job during practices, the team would not have failed. Maybe the teaching basics of catching balls and making plays would be in order.

Michael

TexBlue Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Tex Blue,

I give you credit you admit you kicked it. Now realize all of those kids you let down, because you failed in your job, but at least you admit it and will hustle harder next time.


Well, all I gotta say to that is ya missed the whole stinkin' point. I <B> WAS </B> hustling. I am completely comfortable with what I did. I wouldn't take one more step or one less step or go any other direction. My mechanics were good, my positioning was good, my view was good. If that play happened again, just like it did this time, I'd do everything exactly like I did it this time.

If this still isn't good enough for ya, I got a old, worn out blue shirt with some stains on it ya can wear and come out and try to teach me something better. The quality of the shirt apparently matches your quality of knowledge on mechanics of umpiring. Or, ya can just stay on the board throwing out slop. Your choice. Try reading some of the posts on this subject, maybe even let a little of it sink into that thick coach's head of your's and learn. Or, just keep on spoutin' off, giving everybody a laugh at your expense. You been trollin for about a week on this. You finally got a bite. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/frust.gif

Enjoy it.

That's 'nough on this subject.

[Edited by TexBlue on Apr 29th, 2004 at 11:04 PM]

Brad Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:58pm

I thought about deleting BBallCoach's post, but thought the better of it because it so perfectly shows what we as officials deal with every single game.

BBallCoach -- you say that TexBlue let the kids down, he was unprofessional, and you don't know how he sleeps at night -- because he missed a single play? And he admits it?!?

No one is perfect -- not officials, not coaches. I have seen many games lost at the end because of bad coaching. Whether it is not calling a timeout at a critical time, fouling too late, or simply drawing up a play that totally flops -- there are far too many examples to list where coaches have caused the loss of a game.

Should those coaches also not sleep at night because of what they have taken away from the kids?!?

Coaches always say that all they want is consistency. I'll give you consistency if you'll get rid of the hypocrisy.

Dan_ref Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:27am

Re: This is awful
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BBallCoach
TexUmp,

As a coach I'm very disheartened to read your post about at championship game and you being screened on a play that impacts the outcome of the game. That is you job to physically move so you can see the play. Your going to tell me these girls were Shaq's size and you in your great athletic shape could not simply get around them or get there quickly enough to see the play. That is an injustice to all of those players on both teams that our out there busting their butts trying to win and the officials that are hired to give the kids the best game possible choke like that. If I was the coach I would have had many words with you and am disgusted by your lack of professionalism and ability to simply be in shape and move to the play. This is dishearting and I dont know how you sleep having taken the game away from the kids.


In the times we live a mistake might lead to consequences quite a bit more significant than who wins or loses a HS softball game. But you find the need to jump all over this guy simply because he regrets his performance in a HS softball game.

Simply put, you're an idiot.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:17pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1