FLEX Batting - NFHS

[Dakota]

If you allow an unanncounced sub coming into an illegal batting order spot (coming to bat) to be treated as BOO, then with an attentive umpire (i.e. an umpire who keeps coaches out of trouble with reported subs), the ONLY illegal sub situation possible for a player coming to bat is a sub who has no re-entries remaining.

Otherwise, if she could have legally re-entered at a different batting order position, then you merely have BOO.

I think the NFHS definitions and the penalties in Rule 3 are more clearly written than that. It seems NFHS wants this treated as an illegal player.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dakota
If you allow an unanncounced sub coming into an illegal batting order spot (coming to bat) to be treated as BOO, then with an attentive umpire (i.e. an umpire who keeps coaches out of trouble with reported subs), the ONLY illegal sub situation possible for a player coming to bat is a sub who has no re-entries remaining.

If you really wanna look for an illegal Sub, you can look for players missing from the roster and previously ejected players, also.

Otherwise, if she could have legally re-entered at a different batting order position, then you merely have BOO.

I think the NFHS definitions and the penalties in Rule 3 are more clearly written than that. It seems NFHS wants this treated as an illegal player.

The spirit and intent for DP/FLEX is to play more players, I think, and not to create another way to disqualify them. Indeed, a real jerk off a coach could intentionally try a cute move like that, ... but we are there, on the field, to adjudge such an overt act.

If we can keep them in the game, then let's keep them in the game.

mick

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mick
If we can keep them in the game, then let's keep them in the game. mick

I agree with the sentiment, but it seems to me NFHS has taken the choice out of our hands. To wit NFHS Rule 3-4 ART. 2 PENALTY...

The penalty for illegal substitution takes precedence over the batting-out-of-order penalty.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dakota

I agree with the sentiment, but it seems to me NFHS has taken the choice out of our hands. To wit NFHS Rule 3-4 ART. 2 PENALTY...

Tom,
NFHS backs up your interpretation (below) and kicks the heck outa mine.
You are correct. I am wrong.
Great discussion.
It is clear to me the FLEX may not bat out of turn (Period). If FLEX takes position, out of turn, FLEX is declared out Sitch 12,13; appealed out sitch 14.
mick



SITUATION 12: FLEX-Smith enters the game to bat for F1, listed ninth and has a 1-1 count at discovery. RULING: Illegal substitution. Since the FLEX-Smith is at bat, she is declared out and restricted to the dugout/bench. She must be replaced by a legal substitute. The FLEX-Smith can only bat in the DP position. (3-4-2a; 3-3-6g)

SITUATION 13: DP-Jones bats fourth in the lineup. In the third inning, DP-Jones plays defense for F5, who bats sixth in the order. In the fifth inning, FLEX-Smith, who is listed 10th on the lineup card, bats in the sixth spot for F5. RULING: Illegal substitution. The FLEX can only bat in the DP’s batting position. The FLEX-Smith is called out if still at bat or on base, is restricted to the dugout/bench and replaced with a legal substitute. F5 is considered to have lost her turn at bat and the next proper batter shall bat. (2-57-2c; 3-4-2a; 3-3-6g)

SITUATION 14: Team A is utilizing the DP/FLEX Rule with the DP batting in the fourth spot in the batting order. In the bottom of the fourth inning, Smith, the FLEX player, bats in the 10th spot of the order and reaches first base safely. Before the pitch to the next batter, Team B calls time and informs the plate umpire. RULING: This is considered an illegal substitute. Smith is declared out and restricted to the dugout/bench. The proper batter (lead-off batter) is considered to have lost her turn at bat and the batter in the second position is the next batter. (2-57-2c; 3-3-6g; 3-4-2a)

[WestMichBlue]

I hear you, but remember that the FLEX can be, and is a legal sub for the DP. (I think that the NFHS did not think this one through far enough.)

In a situation where the sub for the FLEX mistakenly comes to bat, and the umpire is ready to invoke the new ILLEGAL sub penalty, a sharp coach will simply say "Sorry Blue, my mistake. Forgot to tell you that FLEX is batting for the DP - I am now playing with nine."

"And, yes, she got a little excited and come to bat one position too soon. So we'll put her back in the on-deck circle and send the proper batter up."

You don't know if he is trying to salvage a bad situation, or if he honestly did forget to announce the sub.

Seems to me if you are inclined to want to keep the kids in the game that you will accept the coach's explanation and disregard the Illegal sub penalty. If you feel that the rules will let you do that.

WMB

[Edited by WestMichBlue on Apr 19th, 2004 at 01:17 PM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Seems to me if you are inclined to want to keep the kids in the game that you will accept the coach's explanation and disregard the Illegal sub penalty. If you feel that the rules will let you do that.

My problem is (thanks to YOU!), I no longer think the rules give me that option.

I don't think this is limited to DP/FLEX. Look at 2-57-2b (and the scenario I posted above without DP/FLEX).

Samo, samo. The player could be BOO, but since she is an unannounced sub in an illegal position in the batting order, NFHS insists on the illegal player penalty and does not allow the coach (or the umpire) to skirt by with the BOO penalty.

I have no idea why, but I would guess it is based on some bad actors in actual games.

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I hear you, but remember that the FLEX can be, and is a legal sub for the DP. (I think that the NFHS did not think this one through far enough.)

Originally posted by Dakota

I have no idea why, but I would guess it is based on some bad actors in actual games.

Amen, Fellas!
Amen!