I was asked this question last night and wanted to make sure I was right. Is any organization disallowing painted helmets? I have heard several discussions about this, the paint may weaken the helmet etc. I know that they should not paint over the warning label and that they need to ensure they don't sand or paint so thick that they make the NOCSAE symbol unclear. But do any of you know of any league that has actually "banned" or discussed banning painted helmets??

Painting Helmets
 

Dave,

I'm not aware of any leagues or associations that have banned painted batting helmets. There are several helmet manufactures that will void the warrantee on altered equipment.

Michael



[Edited by MichaelVA2000 on Apr 16th, 2004 at 02:37 PM]

I have heard that LL has banned all paint and stickers, I don't do LL but saw a rule posting here, or e-teamz. NFHS, and DIXIE require NOCSAE embossing, AND EXTERIOR WARNING LABEL. Warnings are embossed on some helmets, so light paint may not be a problem. Others have a sticker, which if painted or removed makes it illegal in most leagues. ASA does not specify the warning label must be intact, but does state they are to be NOCSAE approved. If NOCSAE mandates warning label, (not sure if they do) then a helmet missing label would not be legal in ASA either. I usually allow the airbrushed ones, the ones that have names and such, but toss a full paint job.

JEL,
Not trying to argue but what do you toss them for? Do you consider that an altered helmet? Are there others that would toss them and if so what for? Again I am not argueing I see both sides of it.

LL rule 1.16 has a note to the effect that: "Helmets may not be painted and may not contain tape or decals unless approved in writing by the helmet manufacturer."

I did hear that Andy Konyar (the LL UIC) publishedd a modification to this rule in Fairball magazine that allows a small decal on the front, or a player name on the back as long as the majority of the helmet surface is not affected.

SamC

Based on what rule?

Sam is right
 

LL has specifically allowed team/league decal on front & small lettering for name or number on back, reasoning that usual decal adhesive in these amounts won't compromise the plastic helmet's integrity.

Beware the difference between mfg. elaborate paint jobs (becoming more common) and aftermarket artwork. As the issue is possibly weakening safety equipment, I believe the stance all sanctions have taken is that original equipment o.k., aftermarket paint has to be approved by the mfg. for liability reasons.

Re: Sam is right
 

The umpire has no clue whether the paint job was approved by the manufacturer or not.

This is a liability / warranty issue, not a legal / illegal equipment issue.

Based on what rule?

ASA helmet rule. NFHS helmet rule. DIXIE helmet rule

If NOCSAE is visible, and warning label is visible, it IMO meets NOCSAE approval, thus is approved for play in NFHS,and ASA.

STANDARD PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION FOR NEWLY MANUFACTURED BASEBALL/SOFTBALL BATTER'S HELMETS
NOCSAE DOC (ND)022-03m03 adresses the label issue, but does not address painting.

As for paint, I wish all would make a "no paint, no exception rule", but LL is the only one to do it so far. Broken, cracked, dented, and illegally altered are the operative words used by ASA. Paint is not really addessed. If Susie wants her name airbrushed on, and a picture of a ball with fangs, I could, but don't consider that altering.
Those jobs are usaually done with water based paints, and do not affect the helmet polymers. A full paint job, one I have seen was painted entirely w/gold enamel spray, NOCSAE not visible-warning label removed, another sprayed w/ hi-build urethane primer, and a 3 stage automotive pearl clearcoat, paint so thick it covered NOCSAE embossing. I tossed them both. Until there is a ruling as in LL, umpires are gonna have to use some judgement.

I agree with your actions on your examples, but the key was not the type of paint (maybe you're an expert in paints, but most of us aren't) or in the "full" paint job v. airbrush job, but rather that the NOCSAE stamp and the warning lable were no longer visible.

If the paint job has been thinned / masked around the NOCSAE stamp / warning lable so both are still legible, I am not going to try to determine the paint technology used.

I disagree. Has the painting of designs on hockey goalie helmets hurt anything? Let the players be creative.

Has the painting of designs on hockey goalie helmets hurt anything? Let the players be creative.

Tom,
To me the question is not has the painting hurt anything. I have never seen a defective helmet injure a player. We don't do a lot of hockey here in south Georgia, so I can't address the goalie masks. I do have a good bit of paint, as well as plastics knowledge, and realize that not all umpires share that. This is precisely the reason I would like to see a "no paint no exception rule". This would remove all qeustion, and liabiliteis issues from the umpires, and let us get on with the business of calling the game. If paint was specifically addressed by rules, the judgement might be easier, but a listing of what can be painted and what not can become over-regulating. If the kids want to be creative, thats fine,(and as I posted before,I allow those if labeling is there) let them be creative with ther bat-bags, jackets and such, and not with safety equipment.

I do think the painted helmet issue could stand some more scrutiny from rules commitees. Again, if safety wasn't involved, this would be a non-issue.

BTW, That gold helmet with non visible labeling? I saw on field opposite of mine last night! Another umpiring crew allowed (or missed) it.

I talked to a guy today who is a little league guy...like UIC or something (not sure official title). He said there was a kid hit in the head last year, and the helmet he was wearing was painted. A lawsuit ensued. According to him the helmet manufacturer said that the painting of the helmet weakened the structure of the helmet, thus it wasn't their fault. Now, I guess, again according to him, that LL has banned all painted or stickered helmets. Only original finish on the helmet is acceptable.

Our helmets are painted
 

Our team uses Riddell helmets, the same company that makes football helmets. We had our helmets painted by Riddell using the very same paint they use for football helmets. They also installed the facemasks and supplied the decals. After painting them, Riddell attached the white rectangular warning label on the back. Here is the problem we ran into once last season: We had an umpire declare the helmets to be illegal because they were painted. Discussions (perhaps arguments) ensued. Ten minutes or so later the umpire relented, but forewarned us that they would not be allowed at state, regionals, and nationals (which didn't prove to be the case). The incident did spook us and we were fearful every time the umpires checked at future games that they would disallow the helmets. Fortunately, that did not happen, although there was some severe questioning a couple of times. Nevertheless, we are quite concerned that there is a "myth", if you will, floating around about painted helmets automatically being illegal.

Any thoughts on how we can be more proactive to avoid a similar incident?

We play ASA (sorry)
 

Forgot to mention that. Girls fastpitch.

First of all, I don't care what little league, dixie, afa, or any other minor sanctioning body has to say about painted helmets other than if you are playing under their rules - follow their rules.

ASA, Fed, and NCAA do not care about painted helmets - those are the sanctioning bodies that I work under, those are the sanctioning bodies that I care about. I guess I'll be adding PONY to the list of organizations that I care abou, but that's another story.

Now, if a helmet is painted thickly enough that I cannot fully see either the stamp of the warning label, I will ask te coach if the coach wants to scrape the paint off. If yes, I'll look at the helment then. If the coach's answer is "no, I won't scrape the paint off that spot on that helmet", the helmet is not acceptable.

Welcome to the club, the "horsie" set.

Why not request a certificate from Riddell stating that the helmets appearance was "upgraded" at the factory using factory approved materials, etc. ? This puts the burden upon Riddell, and absolves the coaches and umpires.
I'm sure this was not a free service, so they should have no problem doing this if they want to generate more $$$ in the future from you and other teams.
In the interim, carry a copy of your invoice from Riddell showing the work was performed by them.

Thanks, Cecil.

RSKIBUM -
First - welcome.
Second - An invoice is not going to be good enough. How can I tell that these are the helmets that your invoice is for? Same thing with a certificate. Unless you have something that is very specific in putting the work done on helmets to these specific helments, it's not good enough.

Thanks!
Ideally, stamping each helmet with an individual serial number, and reflecting these numbers on a cert.
May be too late for your present batch of helmets.
I know, it's a burden upon the manufacturer, but a means to an end.
They can charge $$ for the service.
I work in an FDA regulated enviroment, where documentation is everything.

Good luck!

I am co owner of a company that paints softball helmets and a Schutt Sports dealer. We use paints that have no effect on the helmet or that strethen the helmet. We work many tourments in our area and apy them for painting at there tournaments. It is big bucks for them. We are sought after by them. We are in high demand by the leagues, tournaments, and have the endorsement of Schutt Sports. WHen we paint helmets we maintain high standards. The main thing is you must use a repitable company to paint your helments.

Dave,

With all due respect, I believe this to be a parent/coach subject. This discussion is perpetuated throughout the year, IMO, by people looking for a complaint.

The umpire's job is to enforce the rules for the organization for which they are umpiring at that moment. Obviously, it has no affect in the games you work or you would not have asked the question because you would have checked the book(s) first.

If an organization does have a problem with painted helmets, that's just what it is, their problem and the umpires working their games will know about it.

As far as certification is concerned, unless a company is willing to incur the expense of serializing each helmet and providing a picture of the helmet as it comes off the line, it is useless. Also, no amount of certification absolves ANYONE from the long arms of the legal system in this country.

JMHO,


[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Apr 27th, 2004 at 12:37 PM]

LL does not allow painted helments, however, we are finding that some local areas are ignoreing that rule and letting it happen anyway. I always advise my customers to check with the fiels, schools, leauges, etc that they play at.BTW water base and oil base enamel paint does not hurt the helmet. Call a legit compay like Schutt who sells girls softball and ask them about these types of paints. Talk to someone who is a expert on this there. Also I will tell you that when you use a automotive clearcoat on these helments it just makes them harder. I hope this helps.

Painted Helmets
 

Thanks for the responses to my earlier post. I don't know this, but I would speculate that LL prohibits paint on helmets as much to encourage uniformity as to ensure safety. Let's face it: LL, not unlike the NFL, would like to make sure the players adhere to some standards. It is not so much that LL wants to stamp out creativity, but instead LL wants to adopt rules that discourage rattiness or nonmatching uniforms/helmets. I could be wrong on this, of course.

Speaking ASA, however, there simply is no rule that outright prohibits painting. Unfortunately, some umpires believe the myth that there is such a rule. Most don't, a few do.

What I have seen quite often are ASA teams with helmets that don't match and don't even come close. Different colors or funky designs, paint, stickers, etc. that are unique to each player. My recollection is that ASA rules DO prohibit that, but there is little, if any enforcement of any such uniformity requirement. I'm not advocating there should be enforcement, but I've just never seen it. Just like I've never seen a team told they must wear matching sleeves, sliders and visors. Maybe it happens routinely, but the teams we've faced for the last five years must have gotten lucky, because they rarely are in compliance.

It would be ironic if teams with matching painted helmets (with all warning labels and visible NOCSAE logos) would be prohibited from using them due to a no-paint myth, while uniformity requirements are ignored. The comeback to that, I guess, would be that the uniformity requirement isn't a safety issue while the paint is. Every football team in America should stop painting their helmets, I guess.

What everyone needs to understand is that the rules are for championship play. Many leagues allow variations to the rules guring the season. I for one would not prohibit a player guring the regular season from playing if they didn't have matching sliders.I would mention it to the coach that if they move on to championship play, they must match.

Now back to the helments. The only organization where the helments must match in color is NCAA.

Re: Painted Helmets
 

The safety issue is overblown, but it is real.

Paint involves chemicals, and there are many different kinds of paints, some of which have chemicals in them that react with plastic and can weaken it. It is a possibility that LL bans painting helmets since it is simpler than trying to police "proper" painting.

Personally, I think this should be left between the consumer and the manufacturer, and leave the game officials out of it.

Hockey seemes to have survived just fine with individualism being expressed on goalie helmets.

Goldie helmets are made from diffrent materials and can be painted just like a car.

Re: Painted Helmets
 

ASA Rules -
No where in Rule 2 Sec. 5 E. Helmets, does it mention that all
helmets match.

We had an umpire meeting for Dixie Youth last night, and were told that under no circumstances were we to allow a painted helmet onto the field.

Did you ask them to support that with a rule from the 2004 Dixie Rule book?

The UIC told us that it was in there, so I guess when they told me the chicken crossed the road I didn't ask why. On second thought though, I may just go looking for it myself.

The only thing in the 2004 Dixie Rule book concerning helmets:

2:06 — The batter’s helmet shall be made of Ultra High Impact Plastic or High Impact Plastic Shell. The shell shall be of one-piece construction or two pieces if they snap into a single unit similar to the one-piece construction type. The helmet shall have pieces for ears and full protection for the head and temple. The padding shall be of heavy rubber or similar material. The use of the web-type suspension inside the helmet is not recommended. It is recommended that all future replacements of present stocks be of the padded type. All batting helmets worn in Dixie Softball play MUST be the style made with chin strap snaps and chin straps MUST be properly worn at all times that a player is required a batting helmet. (The penalty for a player not wearing the chin strap shall be after one (1) warning in a game she shall be called out for each subsequent time she comes to bat or runs the bases with an illegal helmet.) A player shall not remove her helmet while at bat or while running the bases. The helmet shall be worn by any offensive player while on the playing field, such as the bat girl, on-deck batter, batter, baserunner or base coach.
Penalty for removal of the helmet while on the playing field shall be that for a first offense the player shall be warned by the umpire; for second and subsequent offenses in the same game, she shall be called out. If the violation is by a bat girl, on-deck batter or base coach the penalty for their second (2nd) offense is removal from the game and from the field.
NOTE: Each batter and each baserunner must wear a batter’s helmet and each catcher must wear a catcher’s helmet which meets the above requirements. Batter’s helmets only, must bear the NOCSAE seal of approval. Catcher’s helmets are not required to bear this seal. The helmet must fit with a snug fit to the head and must be worn as intended by the manufacturer. No other hat or cap may be worn underneath the helmet.
NOTE: Helmets shall not be worn in an improper manner, such as on the back of the head, etc., and if a player’s hairstyle causes the helmet to fit improperly then the player should change her hairstyle so that the helmet will fit properly.
2:07 — A face guard attached to the batting helmet is required for play in all age divisions for all batters, baserunners, on-deck batters, bat girls and players and/or youth serving as a base coach. The face guard becomes a permanent part of the helmet in regards to all rules. The wearing of a helmet is optional for adult coaches. Approved facial protective devices must provide full coverage which will include, but not be limited to, protection for the eyes, nose, mouth and teeth, jaws and cheek bones and forehead and temple areas.

This could, of course, be a league only rule. But I am not sure what the point would be if DSI fails to address it.

Uniform(ity)
 

While the ASA rule on helmets may not mention that they have to match, I seem to recall the rule on matching uniforms can be read to include helmets, as well as sleeves, sliders, etc. Different styles of headwear can be worn on the field, such as caps and visors, so long as they are the same color, I believe. Once again, I am not suggesting that greater enforcement of a helmet uniformity rule (or any other part of the uniform) is necessarily a good idea. I would like, however, to eradicate the no-paint rule myth in ASA circles.

Boooo.
 

Being an engineer and knowing a slight bit about material science...

Yes there is a possibility that certain hydrocarbon chemicals could affect the structural integrity of a plastic helmet. However, the result of poor paint choices that I would expect to see is that the helmet would basically melt - become soft and pliable. Pliable enough so that one could stick their finger through it or make permanent dents.

Most of you seem to be worrying about something that is well beyond your expertise and trying to enforce an unwritten rule that is based upon inappropriate conjecture.

Do any of you even know what the structural strength requirements are for a helmet? Do you know that the structural integrity has changed because Sally painted finger nail polish onto her helmet? Any of you material scientist check with Big Foot as to what type of paints he uses? Do those types make a difference?

You vigilantes need to mellow out. Maybe start worring about what kind of grass is growing in the outfield... I've heard that Kentucky blue grass can cause some severe abdominal allergic reactions ... if you eat 32.783 pounds of it... under a full moon.

The requirement for the proper stamp is the only requirement you can enforce unless some other uneducated idiot has managed to get an unwarranted league rule in place. Then I guess you'll have to enforce that too.

Good luck

Re: Boooo.
 

DownTownTonyBrown:

I am a not a materials scientist, but I am an engineer (BE with a double major in civil/structual and mechanical/enigneering mechanics) and all I can say to your post is:

AMEN BROTHER!!

MTD, Sr.

What is this? The geek board? (I'm also an engineer, and know a more than a little about chemical engineering and materials science, but I rarely bring that to this board.)

Talk about mellowing out - DTTB, take a pill!

Without going back and re-reading this entire thread, if memory servers, the predominate view is... (exception to all of this - LL)

1. There's no rule regarding paint in ASA, or most other organizations.

2. While it is possible improper painting can damage a helmet, this is mostly a warranty issue between the manufacturer and the owner, and does not involve the rules of the game.

3. Officials who take it upon themselves to not allow painted helmets in the game are not backed up by the rules.

4. If the NOCSAE stamp and warning label is visible, that is all that is required. Paint is not an issue.

Chill, will ya?

Geeeeks!!
 

Thanks Dakota,

It appears that you feel the same as do I (your list is right on) just I'm not quite as subtle. :D