My KISS theory about legal bats and what to check.

1. All bats are legal, regardless of certification marks (2000 or 2004) or recert mark or absence of marks - if they are not on the banned list.

2. If that is true, then I do not need to carry the 16 page list of 300 - 400 legal bats. I only need the Banned List of 14 bats.

3. Eleven of the banned bats are SP bats. I can assume that high school age girls are not swinging 34", 27 to 30 oz bats. (If they are using a 34" bat, they want a "drop" of 10oz - 11 oz so they are using 23-24 oz bats.)

4. The three FP bats are all WORTH QUADS, models EST9, XEST9X, and QESTFP. (They are all 8.5 to 9 oz drop bats, so probably not too many girls are going to be using them.)

5. Only critical note is that WORTH is now selling a QESTFPA which is legal.

If my KISS theory is correct, then all I need is a bat ring and a look for WORTH QUADs. If I see a QUAD, I check the list of three banned bats.

Have I got it right?

WMB

WMB,
For Fed in Pennsylvania, that is not so.

1-ALL legal bats must have a certification mark AND not be on the banned bat list. No mark=illegal, on banned list also=illegal

2-True, but in Pa, it is the coaches who must provide the current list - my list is in my car and is dated Feb. If a coach does not have the current list, I have paperwork to do in reporting the coach to the state.

3-true - or so I'd expect.

4&5 - kinda like last year's 3DX & 3DXFP

Carry the entire banned bat list - it's only 1 page.

Our state ASA commissioner included in our registration packet a nice little laminated bi-fold card that contains a summary of the bat rule and a list of all of the banned bats. The only thing I have to do is check the web site regularly to see if any banned bats have been added and either make a mental or paper note.

I attended a clinic this year where the clinician handed out a laminated card with the banned bats that fits nicely into the ball bag or pocket. Comes in real handy!

1 - No Cert mark at all = Illegal
2 - I agree with this where 2000 or 2004 stamp + Not on Banned list=Legal
3 - I dont go there, I have seen ALOT of 34/27 oz bats used in FP as a matter of fact my DD uses a 34/27 Miken Freak (SP Bat - Miken's replacement for banned Ultra 2) and 85% of her team uses this bat. I have also seen alot of other SP bats being used in FP.

In Indiana:

If it's not on the APPROVED BAT LIST then the bat is ILLEGAL. End of story.

WMB,

For Texas you need the banned bat list. If a coach has a bat she thinks
is legal, she better have a copy of the approved bat list and have it
highlighted. Most of the umpires in our chapter carry the approved list,
but not on us. We were instructed to leave it in the car. Then if
the bat becomes a "big issue" produce the approved bat list.

Do not assume that because a bat is a SP bat a girl will not show up with one. It happens especially at HS age.

Though I'm not the UIC for NFHS, but I've received numerous e-mails about HS girls sharing their dad's SP bat.

To: STEVE M, DUKAT, and FUBLUE

When you go to your game tomorrow, you pick up my bat. Louisville Slugger TPSFP 34/27. No 2000 stamp or anything else. Not on the 2004 ASA Banned List.

Now what? Do you use your own judgment? It's not a very hi-tech looking bat; cheap CU31 Aluminum Alloy. Is it OK, or are you going to your car to check the Approved List?

If you do go to the car, you won't find it listed on the 2004 ASA Approved list? So it doesn't have a stamp; it's not banned, and it is not approved. Now what?

WMB

<b>1. If a bat does not have a certification seal on it but it appears on the ASA Approvd Bat list and the coach can show you the number on the approved listing, then the bat can be used.

2. The UIL desires that all umpires have a copy of the "Approved" Bat list in their possession. This copy can be in the umpire's equipment bag or vehicle. The only list to be carried on the field is the "Banned" bat list. The "Approved" listing would be available if, for some reason, you needed to refer to it."</b>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++
This from Walter Sparks. Going by 1., then I would not allow the
bat in the game. It may not be banned as per say by "banned bat list,"
but it is not approved either. Disallow the bat.
JMHO from the way the message from W. Sparks is worded. Since he
is ou<u>r</u> boss, we just <u>follow</u> his directions.

Unlined where the changes I made to by post.



[Edited by whiskers_ump on Apr 16th, 2004 at 10:07 PM]

From the ASA Web Site

ASA Bat Testing & Certification Program

The official bat in ASA Championship Play must meet all of the requirements of Rule 3, Section 1 and:

1. must bear either the ASA approved 2000 certification mark or the ASA 2004 certification mark as shown below, and must not be listed on an ASA non approved list, OR

2. must be included on a list of approved bat models published by the ASA National Office; OR

3. must, in the sole opinion and discretion of the umpire, have been manufactured prior to 2000 and if tested, would comply with the ASA bat performance standards then in effect.

WMB

In NFHS I would not allow it - No Stamp, No Go
In ASA I would - Per Rule 3 which NFHS does not support which gives Umpire discretion on older non stamped bats

"Rule 3 which NFHS does not support"

Actually NFHS does support line number 1 and 2 from Rule 3. Are you saying that #3 - the Umpire Option statement is not allowed by NFHS? If so, based on what?

I realize that the FAQ on the NFHS web site "suggests" that the only way to be legal is to be on the list. However, the 2004 Rule Book only states that bats have to meet the 2004 ASA Bat Performance Standard.

That's it; one simple sentence (1.5.4). The NFHS book deliberately does not use much text on this subject, other than to point you to the ASA web site. Where you find the Bat Testing and Certification Program that I referenced above.

WMB

WMB -
For Pennsylvania NFHS ball (PIAA)

"When you go to your game tomorrow, you pick up my bat. Louisville Slugger TPSFP 34/27. No 2000 stamp or anything else. Not on the 2004 ASA Banned List."

This bat is not allowed in the high school game because it has no seal/stamp. I don't look at any list - never get that far. No 2000 or 2004 seal means this bat does not get into a high school game in Pa. This ruling comes directly from our state interpreter.

In an ASA game, I'll look for the list and maybe the bat may be used. My partner & I will talk and it will be our joint decision with no input or valid opinion from anyone else.

Change the state Pennsylvania Steve said in his last post to Mississippi and the response would be the same. Our interperter stated quite bluntly in our Fed meeting that no stamp = No go.

LS doesn't use the length/weight as part of their model number. Are you sure you are not missing some of the necessary information?

"LS doesn't use the length/weight as part of their model number"

True. But the bat is printed "Model TPSFP3427" That can be interpreted as Tournament Player Series, Fast Pitch, 34", 27 oz.

The TPSFP was manufactured through 2001, and I can assume that those bats built in 2000/2001 carried the ASA 2000 Cert Mark. The TPSFP is on the 2003 ASA approved list, and on other lists (USSSA, NSA). But it is NOT on the ASA 2004 list. (Why not? Error?) My bat was built before 2000, but later models were legal, so this one also should be.

Believe me, it is not a hi-tech bat. Put it in the spring garage sale and be lucky to get ten bucks. Using the ASA guideline, the bat should could be legal using "sole opinion and discretion of the umpire."

Now I am trying to discover why I do not have that same authority in a NFHS game.

WMB

"Now I am trying to discover why I do not have that same authority in a NFHS game."

Now here's the magic question. The answer is actually pretty simple. This time/situation - ASA does not appear to have the balls to set a standard and require that it be met - no seal=illegal. In this case, Fed is ruling exactly how ASA should have ruled. (Usually, it's the Fed who have strange ideas on rules when they differ with ASA.)

If no stamp, or not on the approved list, the bat is not allowed in an NFHS game.

The reason is NFHS adopted the ASA bat performance standard (which results in a bat being on the approved list / stamped), but did not adopt the ASA bat rule, which includes the umpire judgment paragraph.

There is no umpire judgment on approved bats in an NFHS game. They are either explicitly approved, or they are not allowed in the game.

Certification mark is not neccessary
 

The certification mark is not neccessary in Fed ball, as of this year.
See the FAQ at http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/va...on&head=SB.cfm

Again, in Indiana, for NFHS, it's pretty simple. If the bat is not on the APPROVED BAT LIST, then it isn't a good bat...we're not using it. In ASA, then we have that third qualification: if it looks like a bat, and it feels like a bat, and in your opinion it was manufactured before 1995, then you can use it. Personally, if it isn't on that approved list, then I'm not using it.

Scott,
I'll agree that at the Fed level, with no state sanctioning/ruling body input, an ASA stamp may not be present on a legal bat. However, in Pennsylvania, if a bat does not have the permenent stamp/seal - I am not to search the list of legal bats, I do not allow the bat to be used, period.

Even in ASA, I do not want to have the option that I have for older bats - I manufactured prior to 2000, this bat would have passed the standards test. I am not qualified to determine whether a bat would or would not have passed the standards test. That's a lousy position for ASA to have put their umpires in. I kinda resent that - they should have the balls to state their standard and the balls to stick to their standard. Apparently, the powers that be, don't.

We seem to have covered that each state has their own procedure.
The NFHS does not require a seal if the bat is on the 2004 approved list, but does NOT give umpires the authority to accept an "old" bat because it was manufactured prior to testing. That is not a State option and certainly not an umpire option. To be used legally, a bat must be on the approved list and bats with a seal are either on the approved or the banned list.

In my little corner of the world, our state interpreter (Fed) said that the rule of thumb is if it's not on the banned bat list then it's a good bat ( barring ,of course, any alterations or defects).

That is true C1 and that is the way it is written on the NFHS
website....NFHS does offer a suggestion, but only that. Otherwise
it is left up to the indidivual state associations the way I am
reading the article.