In FP ASA Softball, if a batter swings at and misses the third strike that hits the ground before crossing the plate, if the catcher drops the ball, does the batter become a batter-runner or is he/she out?

Does anyone know if the dropped 3 strike rule is the same for Federation Baseball?

Thanks!

If the ball hits the ground before the catcher catches it, then the batter becomes a batter runner if it is the third strike with less than two outs and first base is unoccupied, or if it is two outs and first base is occupied or unoccupied. ASA Rule 8:1:B.



It is for NFHS FP softball. Can't say for baseball. I am sure some of the folks on the baseball board can tell you.

Note that Scott stated the the ball hit the ground before the catcher caught it.

The "name" of the rule is misleading. Any ball not caught in flight by the catcher is considered a D3K (or U3K, as I prefer) when applicable.

IOW, once it hits the ground, it is irrelevant if the catcher actually catches the ball.

I have often wondered why the rules gurus don't call it "an uncaught third strike."

Thanks! One question for clarification
 

Rule 8-1-b-2 says "There are two outs and first base is occupied". But Scott said that with two outs first base can be occupied or unoccupied. I don't see that in the rule book. Am I missing something?

Thanks!
Randall

Re: Thanks! One question for clarification
 

Whenever first base is unoccupied, whether it be with zero, one, or two outs, the batter can advance on an uncaught third strike. The only time they can advance when first is occupied is with two outs.

By "when applicable" you mean....
 

Its been said many times that there are no stupid questions. I may be challenging that rule with this quesiton, but here goes.

Mike, you said "Any ball not caught in flight by the catcher is considered a D3K (or U3K, as I prefer) when applicable."

By "when applicable" I assume you mean if the batter swings and misses the ball for strike 3 or he/she is caught watching strike three cross the plate. In the latter case, the umpire would have to have ruled the pitch was a strike.

Are there any other "applicable's" I need to know about?

The reason for my questions is I'm heading up a group of umpires (volunteers) at my Church. We are doing baseball and fast pitch softball. Many of my volunteers have not called ball before. I do ASA Slow Pitch and have not done fast pitch (yet). So I need to understand these rules in order to pass them on to my umpires.

Thanks!

Fast pitch & baseball are the same with regard to a pitch in the dirt. If it is swung at for strike three, then it is considered a dropped 3rd strike. Batter cannot go if first is occupied EXCEPT when there are two outs. With two outs it does not matter whether someone is on first or not..you can go. The umpire mechanic is to call strike 3.
Same situation applies if it is not swung at..called strike 3, and the catcher drops it.
I have had catchers throw it on the ground after I call strike 3 for the 3rd out, then the batter runs up the line and by then the first baseman has left the field.

Re: By
 

By "when applicable", I believe he meant if the conditions allow.
That is:
1st base unoccupied (anytime)
1st base occupied (only when there are two outs)

Hope that helps...

Re: By
 

"When applicable" means that the pitch WAS a third strike and the occupation status of 1B was favorable for the conditions of a batter advancing on a U3K.

OK, rwest. How would you rule if a 2-strike pitch hits the ground, the batter swings and ticks it, and it goes directly into the catcher's mitt?

Re: Thanks! One question for clarification
 

It's not you that is missing something, it's the book. Many of us have known about this "hole" for a while, but we have no pipeline to get it corrected.

-----------
wrt Scott's "I have often wondered why the rules gurus don't call it "an uncaught third strike." ", I guess that means I'm not a guru as I switched to U3K about a year ago. But then I don't call it "uncaught third strike" because I usually can't type that.

drop the dropped

That's Cruel!!!
 

I've read debates (on the baseball boards) on this topic that would make Hanity & Combs seem like a library discussion!

At any rate:
-even numbered days of the week, I'm ruling FOUL TIP, batter's out.
-odd numbered days, STRIKE, uncaught.....

LOL

actually, I'm partial to the foul tip.

I would rule irrelevant.

I don't like this play, however if a 3rd strike dropped is then hit by the bat as part of the forward or backward part of a swing it seems that we now should have a dead ball foul. I really wanted this to be a simple "FOUL TIP" but I just can't justify it in my head.

Under rules where a pitch that hits the ground in front of the plate is still a live ball; swinging and missing is a strike. "Foul tipping" is the same as a miss, so this is strike three. It is not necessarily an out as it was UNCAUGHT. The out then depends on what Mike called the "occupation status" of 1st, the number of outs and if the batter (now BR) is allowed to run whether the defense makes the out.

As we non-typists need acronyms for everything, "occupation status of 1st" is hereby "OS1". :)

So...does that make the occupation status of 1st when occupied OS1O?

I've got foul tip (caught by definition) for strike 3 and an out, not a strike uncaught.

I was going to say OS1-O, but that's an extra keystroke.

Why "not a strike uncaught"?

I would have to disagree. I'm with C-One on this.

The "foul tip" means that the ball remains live and is treated as a strike untouched by the bat.

The ball was not caught in flight from the pitcher, therefore it is eligible to be considered a U3K.

Delema
 

Why "not a strike uncaught"? [/QUOTE]

This is the delema....

If the ball strikes the ground and the batter swings and misses, the strike is considered "uncaught"

HOWEVER, if the ball strikes the ground and the batter swings and hits a fly ball, the ball can be "caught" for the out.

The definition of a foul tip(NFHS)states:
"... a batted ball that goes directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt..... and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike."

So one side of the discussion says that when the ball becomes batted, it then can be caught.

The other side (yours I think) says that because the ball stuck the ground before the batter swung, it cannot be a caught third strike..
That, too makes some sense.
But, if you are going to say that it is strike 3 UNcaught, then by rule you have to call it a foul ball!! Don't you?

Besides that, right or wrong, it LOOKS like a caught foul-tip. From a game management point of view, I feel more confident selling that call (that by hitting the ball, he change it's status (to a batted ball, which can be caught for a Foul Tip)

Also,by implication, you are saying that if the ball strikes the ground and then the batter hits it in the air and it "is securely held by F7 (before touching the ground, etc), it is still NOT a catch because the ball hit the ground before the batter hit the ball....
Try to sell THAT!! LOL - I KNOW you aren't saying that, but it seems that that would follow.

I'm not sure how to get a definitive ruling, but for now, that's my thinking, the way I would call it and I'm sticking with it ---- for now.

I'
(Written too early in the morning after a night of debauchery)

[Edited by Hugo Tafurst2 on Apr 3rd, 2004 at 09:07 AM]

Re: Delema
 

debauchery or not, that's a good point. A "clean" pitch struck in a manner that could be a foul tip which the catcher misses is a foul ball. Book checking time!

Although I agree with the call, I prefer to get it right and let my better knowledge and explanation provide my game management, rather than having everyone standing around saying "What the ...?"

Well, obviously you can argue this either way. But to me, the ball hitting the bat supersedes the previous bounce and changes the status to pure foul tip. In other words, once the bat hits the ball, the bounce no longer applies.

Of course, ASA might see it differently, and I'm surprised they have never ruled on this. I'm even more surprised that baseball apparently hasn't either. I can't find any mention in J/R, BRD, or PBUC.

Re: Re: Delema
 

(snip)
Although I agree with the call, I prefer to get it right and let my better knowledge and explanation provide my game management, rather than having everyone standing around saying "What the ...?" [/B][/QUOTE]

I think we are agreeing here also.
What I mean by "I can sell the call better" is that I can present the way I read the rule, the foul tip (caught) IS the correct ruling.
I admit that a good argument can be made for saying it is an uncaught 3K, however, not good enough to change my reading of it.
I believe that, I can "sell that".

Now if I am presented with a hard ruling or casebook play, I certainly would have no problem with that.

I don't need to be reminded that softball is not baseball, but now I learn that in baseball the pitch in question <i>is</i> considered "caught" for the purposes of the "uncaught third strike" rule.

Well, I'm gonna reverse on this one.

I'll take ASA's 7.4.D as direction unless somewhere along the way I'm told otherwise.

Not having an ASA book, what does 7.4.D give you?
What about NFHS?

And shame on you for not having an ASA book. BTW, what happened to Hugo #1?

Unfortunately, there is not much ASA (FP) activity in my area. A few years ago, I signed up, but only had 3 or 4 games that were ASA sanctioned in my area (Cocoa Expo, I think).

I have much more opportunities to work NSA, ISA & of course NFHS.

As for Hugo the 1st....

I must have signed up a while ago using Hugo Tafurst. Recently, when I rediscovered this board, I tried to register as "Hugo Tafurst" but was told that name already existed, hence Hugo Tafurst2.

(Simple!!)

I know that its late, but I decided to throw in my two cents worth.

1. U3K rule is based on a non-legal catch of a pitched (thrown) ball.

2. Foul Tip is a batted ball.

What the catcher legally caught was a batted ball, not a pitched ball. Strike three, batter out.

WMB

If you're ruling a foul tip, batter out, how do you reconcile this:

Ball bounces, batter swings and misses, catcher "catches" it - the batter can try to run for first.

Ball bounces, batter barely hits it, catcher "catches" it - the batter cannot try for first.

The logic doesn't sit well. The batter is allowed to try for first because he failed to hit the ball? Seems backward.

I've read and reread (Dixie, Fed, OBA, MLB, ASA). I can't find any source that states that a foultip negates the right of the batter to run to first.

In all other cases, we treat a foultip exactly the same as a missed swinging strike - stealing runners can run, etc. Why, in just this one isolated case, are so many assuming that we should treat this one differently. Seems to me a foultip on a pitch that bounced before the foul should be treated exactly the same as a pitch that was simply missed.

Foultip, Strike Three. Batter can try to reach first, and must be tagged before he's called out.

ASA specifically states that when a foul tip is caught on a third strike, the batter is out.

Mcrowder,

The difference between a foul tip and a missed strike 3 is that a foul tip is a batted ball and therefore it is no longer a pitch. By rights, the batter should be out if the catcher catches a foul tip since it is a batter ball caught in flight; however the rules makers decided that this was unfair to the batter since <b>the catcher normally did not have to do anything unusual to catch the ball,</b> so instead they ruled it simply a strike if the catcher caught the ball and a foul ball if she did not, By your login, a ball that bounces and then is tipped by the batter and caught by the catcher should be a foul ball, rather than a U3K since the foul tip was not "caught".

BTW, it is the same logic as the bolded statement above that is used to call a batter out if the catcher does have to do something unusual (like jump up or make a lunge) to catch the ball, because it is considered a batted ball caught in-flight.

So ultimately it is the change in status of the ball, from a pitch to a batted ball that is the deciding factor on a foul tip vs. an U3K on the pitch that bounces.

SamC

As does everyone else!

Fair enough - brain fart. My bad. I see the rule now.