Dropped 3rd Strike

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by greymule
OK, rwest. How would you rule if a 2-strike pitch hits the ground, the batter swings and ticks it, and it goes directly into the catcher's mitt?

Under rules where a pitch that hits the ground in front of the plate is still a live ball; swinging and missing is a strike. "Foul tipping" is the same as a miss, so this is strike three. It is not necessarily an out as it was UNCAUGHT. The out then depends on what Mike called the "occupation status" of 1st, the number of outs and if the batter (now BR) is allowed to run whether the defense makes the out.

As we non-typists need acronyms for everything, "occupation status of 1st" is hereby "OS1".

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by CecilOne

As we non-typists need acronyms for everything, "occupation status of 1st" is hereby "OS1".

So...does that make the occupation status of 1st when occupied OS1O?

[greymule]

I've got foul tip (caught by definition) for strike 3 and an out, not a strike uncaught.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Skahtboi

So...does that make the occupation status of 1st when occupied OS1O?

I was going to say OS1-O, but that's an extra keystroke.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by greymule
I've got foul tip (caught by definition) for strike 3 and an out, not a strike uncaught.

Why "not a strike uncaught"?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I've got foul tip (caught by definition) for strike 3 and an out, not a strike uncaught.

I would have to disagree. I'm with C-One on this.

The "foul tip" means that the ball remains live and is treated as a strike untouched by the bat.

The ball was not caught in flight from the pitcher, therefore it is eligible to be considered a U3K.

[Hugo Tafurst2]

Originally posted by CecilOne
(snip)

Why "not a strike uncaught"? [/QUOTE]

This is the delema....

If the ball strikes the ground and the batter swings and misses, the strike is considered "uncaught"

HOWEVER, if the ball strikes the ground and the batter swings and hits a fly ball, the ball can be "caught" for the out.

The definition of a foul tip(NFHS)states:
"... a batted ball that goes directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt..... and is legally caught by the catcher. It is a strike."

So one side of the discussion says that when the ball becomes batted, it then can be caught.

The other side (yours I think) says that because the ball stuck the ground before the batter swung, it cannot be a caught third strike..
That, too makes some sense.
But, if you are going to say that it is strike 3 UNcaught, then by rule you have to call it a foul ball!! Don't you?

Besides that, right or wrong, it LOOKS like a caught foul-tip. From a game management point of view, I feel more confident selling that call (that by hitting the ball, he change it's status (to a batted ball, which can be caught for a Foul Tip)

Also,by implication, you are saying that if the ball strikes the ground and then the batter hits it in the air and it "is securely held by F7 (before touching the ground, etc), it is still NOT a catch because the ball hit the ground before the batter hit the ball....
Try to sell THAT!! LOL - I KNOW you aren't saying that, but it seems that that would follow.

I'm not sure how to get a definitive ruling, but for now, that's my thinking, the way I would call it and I'm sticking with it ---- for now.

I'
(Written too early in the morning after a night of debauchery)

[Edited by Hugo Tafurst2 on Apr 3rd, 2004 at 09:07 AM]

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by Hugo Tafurst2
The other side (yours I think) says that because the ball stuck the ground before the batter swung, it cannot be a caught third strike..
That, too makes some sense.
But, if you are going to say that it is strike 3 UNcaught, then by rule you have to call it a foul ball!! Don't you?

debauchery or not, that's a good point. A "clean" pitch struck in a manner that could be a foul tip which the catcher misses is a foul ball. Book checking time!

Originally posted by Hugo Tafurst2
Besides that, right or wrong, it LOOKS like a caught foul-tip. From a game management point of view, I feel more confident selling that call (that by hitting the ball, he change it's status (to a batted ball, which can be caught for a Foul Tip)

Although I agree with the call, I prefer to get it right and let my better knowledge and explanation provide my game management, rather than having everyone standing around saying "What the ...?"

[greymule]

Well, obviously you can argue this either way. But to me, the ball hitting the bat supersedes the previous bounce and changes the status to pure foul tip. In other words, once the bat hits the ball, the bounce no longer applies.

Of course, ASA might see it differently, and I'm surprised they have never ruled on this. I'm even more surprised that baseball apparently hasn't either. I can't find any mention in J/R, BRD, or PBUC.

[Hugo Tafurst2]

(snip)

Originally posted by Hugo Tafurst2
Besides that, right or wrong, it LOOKS like a caught foul-tip. From a game management point of view, I feel more confident selling that call (that by hitting the ball, he change it's status (to a batted ball, which can be caught for a Foul Tip)

Although I agree with the call, I prefer to get it right and let my better knowledge and explanation provide my game management, rather than having everyone standing around saying "What the ...?" [/B][/QUOTE]

I think we are agreeing here also.
What I mean by "I can sell the call better" is that I can present the way I read the rule, the foul tip (caught) IS the correct ruling.
I admit that a good argument can be made for saying it is an uncaught 3K, however, not good enough to change my reading of it.
I believe that, I can "sell that".

Now if I am presented with a hard ruling or casebook play, I certainly would have no problem with that.

[greymule]

I don't need to be reminded that softball is not baseball, but now I learn that in baseball the pitch in question is considered "caught" for the purposes of the "uncaught third strike" rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, I'm gonna reverse on this one.

I'll take ASA's 7.4.D as direction unless somewhere along the way I'm told otherwise.

[Hugo Tafurst2]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Well, I'm gonna reverse on this one.

I'll take ASA's 7.4.D as direction unless somewhere along the way I'm told otherwise.

Not having an ASA book, what does 7.4.D give you?
What about NFHS?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Hugo Tafurst2

Not having an ASA book, what does 7.4.D give you?
What about NFHS?

A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE

D. For each foul tip
EFFECT: (Fast Pitch Only) The ball is in play and runners may advance with the liability to be put out. The batter is out if it is the third strike.

And shame on you for not having an ASA book. BTW, what happened to Hugo #1?

[Hugo Tafurst2]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B(snip)
And shame on you for not having an ASA book. BTW, what happened to Hugo #1? [/B]

Unfortunately, there is not much ASA (FP) activity in my area. A few years ago, I signed up, but only had 3 or 4 games that were ASA sanctioned in my area (Cocoa Expo, I think).

I have much more opportunities to work NSA, ISA & of course NFHS.

As for Hugo the 1st....

I must have signed up a while ago using Hugo Tafurst. Recently, when I rediscovered this board, I tried to register as "Hugo Tafurst" but was told that name already existed, hence Hugo Tafurst2.

(Simple!!)