Close play at 1B, ball in dirt, pops out of F3's glove just as B-R jumps over the bag. Blue signals safe.

While still stretched out and touching the bag, F3 picks up ball, stands up, looks at B-R strolling back to 1B, and throws ball to F1. Blue makes no call and moves on to B position.

Defensive Coach calls for appeal, claiming that B-R missed 1B. Blue says "too late, Coach, runner is already back on base." Coach claims that F3 touched the base while having possesion of the ball before the runner returned to the base.

Your call?

WMB

Sounds like a blown call to me. Blue should not have made a safe call right away, as the runner never touched the bag. However, since he/she did make the call, the defensive appeal would be considered invalid because F3 already did the appeal (inappropriately I might add). Of course, blue seems to have missed that appeal too. In other words, totally screwed up situation.

If I'm wrong guys, go ahead and bash me, but this is how I would handle it if it came up.

Assuming, since it is you, WMB, NFHS (although the ASA ruling would be the same).

Live ball appeals must be a "proper" appeal. Accidental appeals are not recognized. Therefore, unless F3 did something to convince the umpire that she was making an appeal and not just picking up the ball, there is no appeal to rule on.

Once the runner has returned and touched the base, it is too late for an appeal.

My call agrees with your game umpire's call.

The slight hesitation mechanic is for a missed tag / missed base at home, not for any other missed base. Quoting from the NFHS 2004 Rules Book, Since you agree that there was not a proper appeal by F3, how can you say the umpire missed the appeal?

For an appeal in this kind of situation (late throw or muffed catch on a force out) to be recognized, the defense must demonstrate that they are doing something beyond completing the force play too late. They must actually make an appeal.

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 4th, 2004 at 10:07 AM]

I agree with Tom...looks like Blue got it right!

Hesitation ??
 

"The slight hesitation mechanic is for a missed tag / missed base at home, not for any other missed base" I don't believe that hesitation is bad at any base. Now to hesitiate to the amount that might "tip" off a player that something has or is going wrong would be unfair and incorrect. But a slight hesitation in any call I believe has always been taught.

From what I am reading, I, too, will have to agree with the call.

Speaking ASA

No, the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call.

We have all been taught to slow down and then make the call. Anytime there is something amiss, the umpire should hesitate slightly to see if the play may continue. Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal if F3 picks up the ball and chases the runner down the line for an obvious live ball appeal, may offer a poor impression.

Quote:

However, since he/she did make the call, the defensive appeal would be considered invalid because F3 already did the appeal (inappropriately I might add). Of course, blue seems to have missed that appeal too. In other words, totally screwed up situation.

Blue didn't miss a thing. There was no appeal, so the umpire, by rule, is not permitted to rule on it.

It seems most everyone is on this one.

One more vote for the Ump who I think got it right !

The "touching the bag, F3 picks up ball" is not an appeal.

Isn't "Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal ... snip .. .for an obvious live ball appeal" not really a reversal but two calls; which we do often enough that most will get it?

Wouldn't making no call conflict with "the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call"?

Or am I tuned in to Mars today?

Two more comments:

In a play such as this, I have been taught not to give any initial signal at all. Everybody in the world can see the ball on the ground after it popped out of the glove and the runner passing the base. Is a safe signal necessary here?

I think we've covered this, but in the initial post, the request for appeal came from a defensive coach. In order for the appeal to be recognized, it must be made by an infielder.

Andy, the people in the stands can't see the ball on the ground. We are expected to make a call. It's what we get paid to do. I don't think a little safe call would hurt.

While slowing down the timing is a well-taught practice for umpires, that is not what I was referring to.

On the play described, when the fielder dropped the ball, the runner was safe subject to appeal for missing the base.

The safe call can be made immediately so everyone is clear the force out was missed.

Unless the defense sees the missed base and makes the appeal in time, the safe call stands.

That is not the same as making an OUT-SAFE call because you got your timing rushed and call the OUT just as the ball was dropped.

I never have liked the "slight hesitation" mechanic to deal with a dual miss (missed base, missed tag).

I would prefer either no call at all until the play is complete (baseball style - which, of course, would tip everyone that there has not yet been a safe or an out), or have everyone understand that acquiring the base, legally, includes passing the base but missing it, and understand that that is ruled safe unless appealed. That way, there is no defensive confusing regarding the immediate safe call, and the defense would understand that the safe call does not mean there may be no appeal.

I also vote "good call". From original post I dont see a live ball appeal, F3 didn't seem to know the base was not touched.
Some believe that a safe followed by an out on appeal is not a good mechanic, but thats how its supposed to be done. To avoid confusion on this, sell it. "On the appeal..OUT"

Didn't say it wasn't two calls, but was noting the impression given especially if you don't announce the appeal.

Quote:

Wouldn't making no call conflict with "the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call"? Or am I tuned in to Mars today?

Martian, you lost me on that one. Where do you have the umpire making no call?

<b><i>"Close play at 1B, ball in dirt, pops out of F3's glove just as B-R jumps over the bag. Blue signals safe.

While still stretched out and touching the bag, F3 picks up ball, stands up, looks at B-R strolling back to 1B, and throws ball to F1. Blue makes no call and moves on to B position.

Defensive Coach calls for appeal, claiming that B-R missed 1B. Blue says "too late, Coach, runner is already back on base." Coach claims that F3 touched the base while having possesion of the ball before the runner returned to the base."</b></i>

Your call?
__________________________________________

Safe, no proper appeal was made prior to BR returing
to 1B. Even BB changed that rule this year.

I gotta go with the blue on this one. Good mechanics, good call, good reaction to the late appeal. I'm not sure a hesitation call at 1st would have done anything either way. I believe the safe call should be made. However, if no call was made, I'm not sure it would give anything away here. <B> BUT </B>, consistency is a good ruler for the umpire. If he always makes the call at 1st, as he should, he should make it this time, with no hesitation, after he determines the correct call.

After reading your posts and re-reading the original, I would like to say this is how I would handle this (ASA and USSSA slowpitch is my normal game): Watch the whole play through, and as soon as the first baseman actually has the ball in his hand, call the runner out. He cannot be called safe since he overran the base. I have UIC's here who'll ream my *** if I called him safe without him touching the bag.

ASA POE.1.L states <b>" If a runner passes first base before the throw arrives, the runner is considered to have touched the base unless an appeal play is made..........If an appeal is made in either situation, it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."</b> So, now, Ref Ump Welsch, if they talk to you about it, quote it back to them. If they still insist, well, you're on your own there......

I don't believe your UIC has a handle on the rule.

I will simply quote Tom (iceblues reply to this post earlier)

<B>QUOTE "I would prefer either no call at all until the play is complete (baseball style - which, of course, would tip everyone that there has not yet been a safe or an out), or have everyone understand that acquiring the base, legally, includes passing the base but missing it, and understand that that is ruled safe unless appealed. That way, there is no defensive confusing regarding the immediate safe call, and the defense would understand that the safe call does not mean there may be no appeal." UNQUOTE</B>

tom

__________________

:confused:

RICK,

I see we said about the same thing. However, when I posted
I went back to review my post and yours was not there. I
also note that it was sent several minutes before mine. I
guess this storm with strongs winds has everything in reverse. :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

Originally posted by CecilOne Quote: Wouldn't making no call conflict with "the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call"? Or am I tuned in to Mars today? Martian, you lost me on that one. Where do you have the umpire making no call?

Earthling,
My impression from:

"Anytime there is something amiss, the umpire should hesitate slightly to see if the play may continue. Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal if F3 picks up the ball and chases the runner down the line for an obvious live ball appeal, may offer a poor impression."

is that you are suggesting not making a call on the original safe pass of the base, which implied to me a conflict with your previous comment:

"No, the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call. "

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA Quote: Originally posted by CecilOne Quote: Wouldn't making no call conflict with "the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call"? Or am I tuned in to Mars today? Martian, you lost me on that one. Where do you have the umpire making no call? Earthling, My impression from: "Anytime there is something amiss, the umpire should hesitate slightly to see if the play may continue. Making an immediate safe call and then a reversal if F3 picks up the ball and chases the runner down the line for an obvious live ball appeal, may offer a poor impression." is that you are suggesting not making a call on the original safe pass of the base, which implied to me a conflict with your previous comment: "No, the umpire made the correct call, in the correct manner. The runner beat the play, the runner is to be ruled safe and that is the correct call. Now, if an appeal takes place, the umpire makes a ruling on the appeal, not a reversal of the initial call. "

Earthling! If you only knew! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/alien.gif

No. My point was that the hesitation allows an umpire to see if the play is finished. Just as suggested on a missed tag/missed plate, the umpire should hesitate to allow the play to finish. At 1B, this would avoid some confusion if the umpire allowed the continuous motion to proceed. For example, in the scenario offered, if F3 immediately picks up the ball and chases down the runner, it is obvious he is aware of the missed base. The hesitation allows this live ball appeal to continue without the confusion of F3 hearing a safe and stopping dead in his tracks.

If this does occur, the umpire should hold off on the initial safe call, but when the runner is tagged, the call should still be, (point to runner with left hand) "On appeal, out!"

I was not suggesting the runner should not initially be ruled safe, but to just let the play continue if that is what is happening.

I guess I missed the "immediately" in "if F3 immediately picks up the ball and chases "