waited on call

[refjef40]

Yesterday a H.S. var. game with runner on second and no outs.I'm b.u. in the slot by short with a grounder hit to third.Third base takes a long look at second and makes a low throw to first.The throw beats the the runner but the firstbaseman is totally streched out and even though I can't see her back foot it looks like it might be pulled away from the base.I make no call and look over to my partner and yell was her foot on and he motions off so I come out with a big safe sign.Does anyone see anything wrong with this at the time there were no complaints.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by refjef40
Yesterday a H.S. var. game with runner on second and no outs.I'm b.u. in the slot by short with a grounder hit to third.Third base takes a long look at second and makes a low throw to first.The throw beats the the runner but the firstbaseman is totally streched out and even though I can't see her back foot it looks like it might be pulled away from the base.I make no call and look over to my partner and yell was her foot on and he motions off so I come out with a big safe sign.Does anyone see anything wrong with this at the time there were no complaints.

Not as long as your partner still had position to cover the runner going to 3B and see 1B at the same time.

The only problem with it would be if your partner moved to a holding spot for a possible throw back to 3B and didn't see the play. Even worse, what happens if your partner says "I don't know" or just shruggs their shoulders? I have had that happen to me.

With no outs it's not that bad, but if that coulda, shoulda, woulda been the third out of the inning, it can get really ugly.

If I do not have an angle on the foot on the bag, I make the call I see. If the coach then ask me to go for help, no problem, I go talk to my partner.

I'd rather reverse the call on additional information, than the crew look foolish because one or the other wasn't paying attention or was watching another part of a play develop. With a 3-umpire systems it's pretty easy for the PU to help on a call at 1B, but a bit more difficult with only 2 umpires.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not as long as your partner still had position to cover the runner going to 3B and see 1B at the same time.

Exactly (to the rest of your answer, too, but this is the part I want to comment on).

With the runner on 2nd, the PU's priority will be the advancing R1, not the play at first. Making the call at first with a runner on 2nd has always seemed really clumsy in the 2-man mechanic. If your partner has decided R1 isn't going anywhere, he may stay on the play at 1st, but it is risky to assume so.

[Steve M]

I know - different organization - but I'll make the comment anyway.

In the college game, you are much more likely to have an ejection over the call at 1B with a pulled foot than anything else. (This makes watching F3's foot & running lane violation the PU's priority - added this afterward). As PU, I'm holding about 10 feet down the 3B line - so I've got an very good view of the pulled foot. And, I've still got the needed angle on the R2 going into 3B call - along with knowing that I'll be much closer at the time of the call.

Jeff - The mechanic you described is the correct mechanic - but like Mike said, make sure your partner is there ready to render assistance.

[Andy]

Here in AZ, we are taught to do it the way Steve describes. The PU needs to stay on that play at first to help with the pulled foot, running lane, etc. By moving about 10 feet down the line toward third, the PU still has an angle to help on the play at first and is still able to get into a decent position to make a call at third.

I will reiterate the position that the way you handled the play is exactly correct. Go for help before you make the call. This is one of the awkward positions that the 2 umpire system puts us in. From C position, you are basically straight-lined on a throw from short to first. You can tell that the ball beat the runner, but you have no idea if that foot came off the bag on the stretch. If you do it this way, no one can complain about anything.

[refjef40]

Yes for Mike that is what made this go is because there was no movement by the runner at second making it easy for the p.u. to watch the foot.I agree with Steve the pulled foot is very controversial.I think that if the third base play comes up the b.u. has a great angle at third.This should be covered during pre-game.

[Steve M]

The second call - the one on R2 going into 3B still belongs to PU. With BU in position C and the initial play being F6's throw to F3 at 1B, BU is moving toward 1B. And BU will not have any kind of a survivable calling angle or position to make a call at 3B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy
If you do it this way, no one can complain about anything.

Yeah, right! Bet me on that one.

Well, this is one area when my playing years take hold and completely disagree with waiting on help with active runners. Whether offense or defense, as a player, I want a call and I want it now.

I understand if an umpire is blocked out, but not if they see a play. I'm not going to worry about a pulled foot, a possible missed tag or a marginal 3' lane violation until I need to worry about it. I can correct those situations with relative ease.

The scenario offered worked well because the runner was not a threat to move. However, the same play with multiple runners moving, while the BU is waiting on a decision, assuming there is one to be had, can lead to a multitude of problems just due to the hesitation.

It is my personal belief that this train of thought derives from baseball. I have often had discussions, sometimes heated, with the little ball guys that an umpire should NEVER, NEVER change a call once made, including an appeal on a pulled foot or a missed tag, missed base.

Also, I don't think the priority on the call at first is as important as I am reading in Steve M's post unless it was the sole play. I would think that, especially at the collegiate level, a coach is going to be more concerned over a missed call at any other base before one at 1B as the closer a runner gets to home, the more important their survival and the umpires call becomes.

I know it doesn't agree with most, but it is just my personal opinion,

[CecilOne]

We also have to factor in not guessing an out; so if not sure about the pulled foot, the BR is safe unless the PU says no pull. And if the play is that close the BR would be running through the base, probably not going anywhere else, which means the safe call can be easily corrected.
I disagree with making the call before at least looking to the PU who should have seen it even if sliding toward 3rd. If no immediate response, call safe and ask again after the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne
We also have to factor in not guessing an out; so if not sure about the pulled foot, the BR is safe unless the PU says no pull. And if the play is that close the BR would be running through the base, probably not going anywhere else, which means the safe call can be easily corrected.
I disagree with making the call before at least looking to the PU who should have seen it even if sliding toward 3rd. If no immediate response, call safe and ask again after the play.

I'm not talking about guessing an out. I am talking about making a call based on the information the umpire has available. If you want to be that precise, a BU should never call an out at 1B from the C position anytime they are not absolutely sure the defender was in contact with the base while holding the ball.

There is no doubt that checking with your partner would not be that difficult at the lower ages, but as the level rises and especially in the SP game, you may not have the time to check without affecting another runner or defensive option.

[Woodchuck]

Mike, I agree with you. The call belongs to the BU and he should make it, that what he getting oaid to do. If the coach objects to the call you can always get together and correct the situtation afterwards. I have never missed a call from the angle I had to make it from and have changed many of them after discussion with my fellow umpire. The bottom line is if its your call make it.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Woodchuck
I have never missed a call from the angle I had to make it from and have changed many of them after discussion with my fellow umpire.

If you had to change it, you missed it!

I agree with your point that the BU has a job to do and needs to do it. My point is that the two umpire system with the BU in C position is not an optimal situation for the call at first base. It is very possible that you are not able to get all of the information you need to make the call due to the angle you are looking at first base from.

I contend that it is better to ask your partner about the pulled foot before you make the call. You are not giving up the call, just gathering more information that you could not get before.

Once a coach requests that you go for help after you make the call and then you reverse your call, you are telling both coaches that they can request that you "get help" on any call that they don't like.

Mike and some of the others have brought forth some very good points in this thread about the positioning and responsibilities of the PU in some situations that, I must admit, I had not throughly considered before. But, as I mentioned in my previous post, my association trains that the play at first is the PUs responsibility for the pulled foot, then the possible play at third. This is the way that I will continue to handle this situation.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Andy

If you had to change it, you missed it!

I think what Woodchuck meant to say there was, "I have never failed to make the call," as opposed to "miss." That was the way I interpreted it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Andy

If you had to change it, you missed it!

I agree with your point that the BU has a job to do and needs to do it. My point is that the two umpire system with the BU in C position is not an optimal situation for the call at first base. It is very possible that you are not able to get all of the information you need to make the call due to the angle you are looking at first base from.

Then why not give the PU the call? If he is going to remain in position to see the running lane, the defender's foot and be prepared to cover 3B, then why can s/he not determine if the ball was there in time? After all, it is quite possible the PU is no farther from the play than the BU.
{b]

I contend that it is better to ask your partner about the pulled foot before you make the call. You are not giving up the call, just gathering more information that you could not get before. [/b]

If you have to stop and think about it, you just as well give it up. I believe you call what your brain sees and processes.

Once a coach requests that you go for help after you make the call and then you reverse your call, you are telling both coaches that they can request that you "get help" on any call that they don't like.

That is just plain not true and you probably know that. I'm doing nothing more than working with the coaches by using what help is available (when it is available) if there is something they believe I may have missed. A coach comes to me with a request to ask my partner for help, they must be specific as to what they believe I missed that my partner could have possibly seen or it just doesn't happen. I do not ask for help if I know I had the full play in my mind.

There are F3s out there that are going to pull that foot every time. Are you going to your partner on every play?
I certainly hope not.

There are times to go for help and times not to do so prior to making a call. Only because in the scenario offered the runner stayed put at 2B was this an easy situation. If that runner wasn't checked and on the move, it could have been ugly. Been there, seen it, experienced it. I've done it your way at a National on a play at the plate. I had a top rate umpire for a partner, but it made us look bad on a no win situation than a straight call with a possible request for help after the fact. And it was an important one, a play at the plate.