Batter hits pitch that hit ground

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 01:12pm

Slow pitch.

We know that a batter cannot swing at a pitch that has hit the ground or the plate. 7-5-B says, "If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball."

But what if the batter swings at a short pitch, and his bat contacts the ball immediately after the ball has hit the ground (or plate). in other words, he swings at (not after) the pitch and hits the ball on the short hop.

Is this a live ball, as in FP or baseball?

DaveASA/FED · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 02:19pm

Don't have my book, but I thought I remember reading that once the ball hit the ground in slow pitch it was dead. If I am remembering that correctly then it could not be hit as, if you are sure it hit the ground before the bat, it is dead as soon as it hit the ground.

Let's see how good my memory is!

gsf23 · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 02:20pm

I believe in slowpitch, once the pitch hits the ground it is a dead ball, so if the batter swings and hits it, dead ball get it back to the pitcher, make sure no one advanced any bases.

whiskers_ump · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 03:15pm

You are both correct.

ASA 2003 Rule Book R7 S4 B.

chuck chopper · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 05:12pm

Don't have my rule book here at work, but I say it's a strike, then a dead ball. The swing happened before the ball hit the ground.

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 05:30pm

Sorry, but there is way too much thinking on this one.

Speaking ASA.

If the pitched ball touches ANYTHING (in flight) other than the bat, it cannot be put into play by the batter. Doesn't make any difference if the ball hops 3 inches, 3 feet or 3 yards, it cannot be put into play by the batter.

It is only a dead ball if it hits the plate or in front of the plate.

It is not a strike.

greymule · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 05:38pm

I'm not talking about a swing that occurs after the ball hits. We know that's to be called a ball.

I'm talking about a pitch that is swung at. The batter swings in an obvious attempt to hit it in the air. He does not see it bounce and then swing. If the batter misses it everyone would see it as a strike. That's a different story. 7-5-A says, "[A ball is called by the umpire] for each legally pitched ball which . . . touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing. [My emphasis.]

So obviously the batter can legally swing at such a pitch, but he cannot swing after the pitch hits the ground or plate (7-5-B).

I'm still confused.

IRISHMAFIA · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 10:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
I'm not talking about a swing that occurs after the ball hits. We know that's to be called a ball.

I'm talking about a pitch that is swung at. The batter swings in an obvious attempt to hit it in the air. He does not see it bounce and then swing. If the batter misses it everyone would see it as a strike. That's a different story. 7-5-A says, "[A ball is called by the umpire] for each legally pitched ball which . . . touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing. [My emphasis.]

So obviously the batter can legally swing at such a pitch, but he cannot swing after the pitch hits the ground or plate (7-5-B).

I'm still confused.

ASA 7.5.A is FP only!

ASA 7.5.B includes the sentences: Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball.

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 06, 2004, 10:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Originally posted by greymule
I'm not talking about a swing that occurs after the ball hits. We know that's to be called a ball.

I'm talking about a pitch that is swung at. The batter swings in an obvious attempt to hit it in the air. He does not see it bounce and then swing. If the batter misses it everyone would see it as a strike. That's a different story. 7-5-A says, "[A ball is called by the umpire] for each legally pitched ball which . . . touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing. [My emphasis.]

So obviously the batter can legally swing at such a pitch, but he cannot swing after the pitch hits the ground or plate (7-5-B).

I'm still confused.

ASA 7.5.A is FP only!

ASA 7.5.B (Slow Pitch Only) includes the sentences: Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball.

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 07, 2004, 11:58am

I mistakenly quoted 7-5-A instead of 7-5-B. However, the part I quoted is identical.

So if the batter swings at a pitch, the pitch hits in front of the plate, and the batter hits it on the short hop, we are to call a ball. I'm not sure I would say the batter swung after the ball hit the ground, but I'll go along with that.

However, by that logic, if the batter swings at a pitch, and we see the ball hit the ground in front of the plate just before the bat misses the ball, we would also call a ball. That's hard to believe, but whether he hits the ball an instant after it touches the ground or misses the ball an instant after it touches the ground should not matter.

Why does ASA use the language "swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate"? It seems to me they're talking about an obviously late swing that begins after the ball has hit the ground or plate, not an attempt to hit a pitch in flight. We would have to know exactly what "swing" means, and at what instant the batter would be said to have swung.

I really don't want to be a pedant about ASA's wording, but changing "hits" to "has hit" to one sentence might make things clearer: "Any pitched ball that has hit the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter.

Woodchuck · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 07, 2004, 08:36pm

Speaking USSSA Slo-pitch, the ball is alive when it hits the ground on a pitch, the runners on base can leave the base when the pitch contacts the ground and if the batter swings at the pitch you play the results.

Skahtboi · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 08, 2004, 12:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by Woodchuck
Speaking USSSA Slo-pitch, the ball is alive when it hits the ground on a pitch, the runners on base can leave the base when the pitch contacts the ground and if the batter swings at the pitch you play the results.

No sir Woodchuck:

USSSA 2004 Rulebook

Rule 7:4:B:effect:

The ball strikes the ground before passing completely across Home Plate, or any part of the plate;

The ball is dead...

IRISHMAFIA · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 08, 2004, 05:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule

I really don't want to be a pedant about ASA's wording,

I think many on this board would agree that it is a little too late for that claim, Claven!

Woodchuck · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 08, 2004, 08:36pm

Skahtboi - I don't have 2004 rules as of yet but my statement is correct according to 2003 USSSA Rules.

greymule · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 08, 2004, 11:57pm

I think many on this board would agree that it is a little too late for that claim, Claven!

Probably so. I just wish the rulebook meant what it said, said what it meant, and did not mislead the reader with ambiguities. There's something wrong when a group of experienced umpires, all with a rulebook in their hands, can't agree on how a play should be called.

"Claven"? I give up!

And I still want to know: batter swings and misses, but ball hits plate just before bat reaches ball. Do we call that a ball?

[Edited by greymule on Feb 8th, 2004 at 11:00 PM]