There was in interesting post on Troll Central that I thought I would paraphrase over here, with a couple of slight adjustments, since hardly anyone responds over there anymore.

ASA or NFHS rules.

The rules state that if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher, the DP is not allowed a CR if she gets on base.

The rules also state that, after the first half inning, the player who last played the pitcher or catcher position in the previous half inning is allowed a CR is she gets on base.

Situation: DP is batting for F1. DP goes in to play defense for F2. F2 remains in the game batting in her normal position, right after the DP in the order. Next half inning, DP comes to bat and gets on base. Coach wants to put in a CR for the DP. Do you allow it?

The starting F2 comes to bat next and gets on base. Coach wants to put in a CR for her. Do you allow it?

I have poured through the NFHS and ASA rule books/case books and find no reference to this at all. So, with that in mind, I would say that if the DP had played catcher during the defensive half of the inning, then the CR should be allowed. That being said, the original catcher obviously didn't catch that defensive half, and therefore should not have a CR allowed. All of this, of course, is conjecture.

I don't think it matters where the DP is defensively, since the DP is batting for F1, no CR allowed.

This citing - "The rules also state that, after the first half inning, the player who last played the pitcher or catcher position in the previous half inning is allowed a CR is she gets on base." - is only there to identify who is the pitcher and/or who is the catcher. Regardless of where the DP is defensively, that's still the DP.

Speaking ASA.

I'm sorry, but the DP bats for no one. The DP bats in the position the DP was listed at the beginning of the game.

If the batter (ANY BATTER) in question occupied the defensive position of F1 or F2 when their team recorded the final out in the previous half inning, they have met the qualifications of being replaced on the bases during that half inning by a courtesy runner (different one for each position) as long as that player reached base on their own accord.

Obviously, this would not apply in the top half of the 1st inning as the DP cannot be listed as F1 or F2.

However, if the FLEX is F1 or F2, it is possible that the Flex could bat for the DP in the top of the 1st and be eligible for a CR. However, if the DP re-entered after the Flex reached base, that player is NOT eligible for a CR.

I do believe it is the same for NFHS.



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Feb 4th, 2004 at 06:23 PM]

Mike & Scott, I agree with your ruling. The rule preventing the DP from having a CR means the DP does not inherit this right from the Flex when the Flex is F1 or F2. However, it does not mean the DP cannot earn that right on her own by actually playing the F1 or F2 position.

Even though the rule book doesn't explicitly say this, it is consistent with what I read the intent of the rule to be, and is how I would rule.

Steve, I agree ASA rule 8-10E is written in absolute terms, but so is 8-10A & B, so I'd resolve the apparent conflict by ruling based on what the intent seems to be (barring an official ruling to the contrary from ASA or NFHS).

Ahem...

ASA (2003 - don't have 2004 yet) Rule 4-3FRule 8-10ETechnically, you're correct, but the Rule Book does use that language.

I agree. If DP has defensively played F1 or F2 (in the prior inning), we should allow the Courtesy Runner. Some coaches like to try to fool umpires on this rule...happened some in Indiana last year since we "experimented" with the rule. I know one coach who convinced a plate umpire twice that the DP gets a courtesey runner when batting for F1 or F2.

Here's how he did it. DP gets a hit. Let's just say that DP isn't "fleet of foot" and has to smack the wall with the ball to make it to first base. He then puts F1 (whom DP is batting for) in for DP (a substitution?). One pitch is thrown. Coach calls time, goes to umpire and says, "I'd like a courtesy runner for my pitcher." He agrees. Partner said nothing about it to the plate umpire (I was spectating). Coach does it again in the game.

Other coach is oblivious to the whole situation, doesn't say a word. See's me later in the season (non-softball related) and asks if it was legal. Said no it's not. He said he thought so but didn't want to complain about it.

What I call a "half substitution." DP has left the game, but Flex's status is unaffected (i.e. it is not a reentry since she was already in the game). Lineup goes from 10 to 9. Should not have been allowed. At this point, the starting DP is done for the game. She has used her re-entry to bat again, and she has left the game again. She sits out the remainder. And, like the first time, the CR should not have been allowed.

But the rule book does explicitly state who is permitted a CR. If the runner does not meet the quals, they don't get a CR. The misunderstandings are caused when folks insist on forcing their own logic which often includes intermixing offensive and defensive positioning into the equation.

Quote:

Steve, I agree ASA rule 8-10E is written in absolute terms, but so is 8-10A & B, so I'd resolve the apparent conflict by ruling based on what the intent seems to be (barring an official ruling to the contrary from ASA or NFHS).

Yes, in absolute defensive positioning terms.

Yep, you caught me not qualifying my statement by commenting that the DP doesn't bat for anyone other than the designated FLEX player in the 10-slot on the line up card.

The CR is allowwed for whoever played the F1 or F2 position in the previous half-inning as long as that player became a base runner on their own and not as a pinch runner. The same would apply to a Flex listed as F1 or F2 if they batted for the DP in the first inning and became a base runner on their own. The original rule was clarified about the CR being for the player who played the position and became a base runner on their own. I don't see why there is any problem with interpretation or why the above deceptions are not obvious.


As long as CR rules came up, remember the CR is running for the position and not the player.
For example, #10 is pitching, #15 is catching and #33 is used as a CR for the catcher.
If #20 replaces #15 as catcher, #33 can still be the CR for #15 as catcher; but not #15 if playing another position.
Even if #10 and #15 swap positions, #33 can still be CR for #10 as catcher, but not for #15 as pitcher or any other position.

You might want to check out Situation 18 of the 2004 Fed Softball Rules Interpertations.

http://www.nfhs.org/sports/softball interp.htm

It makes it clear that the catcher of record is the player who caught the last pitch of the previous half inning and is allowed a CR. (The same logic must be applied to the pitcher.)

Roger Greene

Half-Substitution
 

Tom,

Nice "half-substitution" description. I like the concept. It is like a sub, but not like a sub. I'm going to borrow this analogy to explain it to a bunch of new guys.

I want to make sure I understand this.
Say the count is 0-2 with 2 outs. The coach calls time and wants the put the DP in on defense in F2 position.
The next pitch is a strike for the third out. The DP is the first batter up and gets on base. Can a CR be used for the DP seeing that she was the last player to physically play the F2 position in the previous inning?

Yes. Remember, the objective of the CR rule is to speed up the game - to allow F2 to get her gear back on. Even though some coaches will use it for base-running speed - and that's OK - the assumption is the DP will return as F2. There is no requirement that she actually DOES return as F2, though.

To expand on this a little.

1. not who caught the last pitch, but who was in the position of catcher when the last pitch was thrown, e.g. change of catcher with two outs, last batter pops up so the new catcher never actually caught a pitch. (I think this is what you meant but I wanted to specify.)

2. "Adams" (DP) batting fourth and "Washington" (F2) batting fifth. In the bottom of the first inning "Harrison" is CR for "Washington". In the top of the third, "Adams" plays defense for "Washington". In the bottom of the third, "Harrison" is CR for the "Adams." All legal.

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...chat/wrong.gif

Adams was the CR for Washington.

Harrison was not a CR at all. He was a pinch hitter for Cleveland, who re-entered 4 innings later.

C'mon, man, get it RIGHT!http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...hat/seerog.gif

Ok, I will probably get hammered for this but here goes. 1st (simplified for my weak mind) in the top of the first inning only person labeled at F1 and F2 can have a CR, in bottom of 1st and all other innings whoever last person was that held the F1 and F2 position when the 3rd out was recorded can have a CR.

2nd I agree that the situation used above with the coach batting the DP then subbing the Flex (F1) for the DP and then trying to get a CR is unethical but is it illegal? I mean what rule specifically supports it not being allowed? You can subsitute the the Flex for the DP right? And you can have a CR for the person who last played F1 right? So I agree it is sleezy but what is the basis for asying it is not allowed by rule?

Not trying to start a fight just trying to understand. Also I agree that this could only happen twice with the original DP as that player would be out for the rest of the game, coach could sub another player for the original DP and keep going till he ran out of players.

I don't have my rule books with me today, but a CR can only be used for a pitcher or catcher of record who bacame a BR through their own at bat.

The sub of Flex for the DP once the DP was on base was legal, but the Flex cannot now have a CR. The logic is simple - "Coach a CR is only allowed for the player who batted. Your F1 did not bat. No CR. If you insist, it will be a charged substitution."

It's the logical extension and official interpretation of NFHS 8-9-5 (2003 number).

_____________________________________________
Tom,
What do you need a book for. You and Steve M. wrote
the rule. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cheesy.gif.
Good call.

That as also one of the points of emphisis for 2004, (at least in the NC clinics) and the reason the interp was put on the site.

Roger Greene

I'm have a hard time understanding why there is still a discussion on the CR.

The rule for the CR is the fielder walking away from the F1 and F2 positions ONLY may have a CR if those players, and only those players, reach base of their own accord the following half inning.

And yes, there is the top of the 1st exception where only the two players who have a 1 and 2 next to their name in the defensive position column have access to a CR if those players reach base of their own accord.

It doesn't make any different whether it is a DP, FLEX or anything else.

This is much like the IFR. The rule stands alone. The use and enforcement don't affect the application of any other rules. (IFR exception: the intentional drop is ignored when the IFR is applied.)

In spite of your pretty graphics, I disagree. However, since there is no substance to your answer I have nothing to debate. Having a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" discussion would be of no benefit.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota
Very funny, I hope !

keys to DP/FLEX
 

I'm doing a coaches' briefing on rules tomorrow night and plan the following adaption of my earlier post as a handout. Any comments? BTW, the book does not say swaps can be made any number of times.
-------------------

Revised version posted below.

[Edited by CecilOne on Feb 12th, 2004 at 10:22 AM]

One thing you might want to mention to the coaches is that any movement of the DP/Flex must be reported to the ump.

Sigh. OK - perhaps here isn't the place for a joke that depends on historical references.

G. Washington - 1st President
J. Adams - VP to George (and also 2nd President, but that wasn't part of the reference; I guess I coulda said Adams then replaced Washington in the 9th inning...)

G. Cleveland - 22nd President
B. Harrison - 23rd President (for a single 4 year term)
G. Cleveland - 24th President

If ya hafta splain 'em they ain't funny. Oh, well.

[Edited by Dakota on Feb 11th, 2004 at 01:24 PM]

Re: keys to DP/FLEX
 

You'll recognize the "meat" of this post from my post on eteamz...

Start first by reminding them of what they already know to start with a baseline of things they understand: The rules concerning subs and re-entry DID NOT CHANGE! Subs bat where the starter batted. Players may reenter one time. Defensive position swaps are not subsitutions. All the same as before.

Then, explain the starting positions of the DP and Flex and how that affects them for the rest of the game:

The DP's starting position is on offense. If she is not playing offense she has left the game - someone is subbing for her.

The Flex's starting position is on defense. If she is not playing defense, she has left the game - someone is subbing for her.

Both the Flex and the DP may be subbed for in the usual ways. The sub takes on the position of Flex / DP (respectively).

Then, get to the specifics about DP/Flex they need to watch out for...

The only place the Flex may bat is for the DP.

The DP may play on defense for anyone. When she does, the player replaced on defense still bats in her usual position & has not left the game. This is a defensive position swap. (Of course, the Flex does not have a batting postion, so if the DP plays defense for the Flex, the Flex has left the game, as I said above).

When the DP goes in for the Flex, or vice versa, this <u>must</u> be reported to the umpire. Otherwise, it is an unreported substitute.

--------
As to your comment about defensive swaps with the DP, the ASA POE in 2003 addressed this. I haven't gotten my 2004 NFHS book, yet, but it is clearly a defensive position swap as long as the Flex is not involved ('cause if the Flex is not playing defense, she has left the game) - otherwise, it's the same as moving Sally from 2nd base to center field and Joan from center field to 2nd base - the coach can do this every pitch, if he wants to - barring a delay of game ruling by the umpire).

Re: keys to DP/FLEX
 

Careful with this sweeping generalization. DP/Flex switches are "half substitutions" (my term) since one of the pair has left the game, and will use up her re-entry rights when/if she returns. However, the one of the pair that remains in the game has not been affected at all, wrt sub / reentry / etc.

Whew! At least Cecil got it!

Thanks. Revised version:

The keys to DP/FLEX are:
A) no player can bat in different batting order slots during a game

B) making it known before the game with the lineup and
being sure all changes are reported to and tracked by the PU

C) knowing the provisions:
1) DP starts on offense, FLEX starts on defense
2) if not in starting “function”, not in game
3) the DP and FLEX players can't be in the batting order at the same time
4) the FLEX can only bat in the DP slot
5) the DP can play defense at the same time as the FLEX – any position
6) in #5, the player not playing defense still bats

C) DP/Flex switches change the number of players in the game; but do not change the batting order

D) DP/FLEX replacing each other are not “substitutions”, but when either leaves the game and returns, that is a reentry.

One question Mike- I would assume then that the CR is NOT available in which F1 or F2 is the runner that starts at 2B at the time when the tie-breaker comes into effect? I am assuming that because she did not reach that base on 'her own accord'...thanks!

Thanks also for your previous interp on the CR/DP- I actually got a NYSSO clinican AND an ASA Elite ump who are members in our chapter on this!

Yes, as long as the last player due to bat in that half inning finished the previous half inning in either the 1 or 2 position.

Clarifying what I mean by "her own accord". A team cannot use a re-entry of F1 & F2 for the purpose of gaining the use of a CR.

No, actually it is still funny. Very good. Sorry I missed it. (Now the local Mensa chapter will probably T.P. my yard.)