fpsr
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Bases loaded, no outs. Ground ball double play ball, but runner from first makes an illegal slide into second. Who's out for the interference? Batter/runner or runner closest to home? |
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intentional double play breakup - BR out retired runner - no intentional double play breakup, closest to home |
Sorry, I'm still confused.
The runner that slid illegally into second was out. (it was a force out). Does it matter about the b/r at first? Doesn't the illegal slide kill any further play? Isn't the illegal slider a 'retired runner? |
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The "intentional double play breakup" is when the RUNNER hasn't been put out yet. For example, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. BR hits a ball to F4, who is trying to tag R2 and then flip to F3 for the DP. R2 interferes with F4, such as knocking it out of her hand/glove while being tagged. That would be the limited way to get the BR out. Once the runner is retired, it is always runner closest to home. I have never called the "intentional interference on a double play", and I've umpire a variety of JO, adult slow and adult fast. |
I should have added fast pitch hs fed
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BTW, no code of softball has a FPSR; that's baseball talk. |
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Do you think it could happen on a slide, legal or other wise? |
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UIC and leadership told me after the game it was a call I should have passed on. I still respectfully disagree. (Irish, this is the tournament on the East Coast where you and I met in person for the first time.) |
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The call I referred to is when a RUNNER interferes with a double play opportunity and the trailing runner is called out. The former is common; the latter I've never called. |
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As my turn was coming up, I overhead a technician tell the runner at first base to intentionally interfere with the fielder covering second base. So I thought I had a head's up on what was coming. As the drill unfolded, there was a force out at second, and sure enough, the runner ran into the fielder. The throw to first was affected. Smart me called the out at second and then the BR out due to the INT by the retired runner. Mr. JC said that was not the right call. After the call at second base, my focus should have been on the throw to first base. The PU would be responsible for making the INT call at second base. |
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Since you said you were U3, I assume three-man with you being rotated, and U1 having responsibility for the play at first base. If that's the case, then I can't imagine who your "UIC and leadership" would say has the call at second base. |
How about a why for either the national UIC or the NUS clinician?
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I'm thinking a clarification may be coming. |
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I can understand being told that it wasn't a good get on the INT. F4 had plenty of time to move and throw from somewhere else...that said, a fielder with the ball doesn't have to go anywhere on the field she doesn't want to. When she got slid into and taken out by R1, I thought it was an easy call. At that point, it's down to philosophy and judgment. I won't even bring up the UIC/leadership advice I got a year later regarding not calling and enforcing an IP for a pitcher with rock rosin that wasn't detected until after a runner was on base....:D |
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A retired runner cannot simply go "poof". |
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The "veering away" is an act. It's an act that cannot be anticipated by the fielder, and if it takes the runner into the path of a thrown ball, it should be called as INT.
Continuing upright (or legally sliding) directly toward 2b after being forced out should not be. This I learned on this forum (from Irish :) ). Please let me know if this conflicts with NCAA, 'cause I wanna get it right (in my 2nd year there). |
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There is a USA (Oct 2018 - on line) and NCAA (March 2019 - arbiter training tape) clarification of this play. I won't repeat them here because their words are very much their own. My take: It is never "never" (Mike's side) or "always" (my former side). There are grey areas and you need to officiate and apply the definitions and appropriate rules. BTW - veering off can be a form of int and can also NOT be a form of int; staying in the base path CAN be a form of int and also can NOT be a form of int. |
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USA's interp from 2007 or 2009 NUIC clinic offered a sample play were simply being hit while running to 2B was not INT. Their counter-example was a just retired runner falling to the ground and getting back up and getting hit by the throw was as that was an act independent of simply attempting to advance. It is the same philosophy for a batter interfering with a catcher's throw to 3B. If the batter stays where s/he belongs it is not INT if hit be a throw from the C. This had been, and still is, the philosophy for decades. If the batter is restricted to that certain spot, the catcher knows where s/he needs to make the throw. Why in the world would the same philosophy not apply on the base paths? Have NCAA & NFHS deemed these players and coaches simply not smart enough to understand something so logical my dog can understand it? |
woof, woof :)
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Seeing eye dog? ;)
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It isn't just NFHS and NCAA softball that expect the runner coming into second base on the front end of a DP to not go into the base standing up. This is simply part of the Force Play Slide Rule that exists in NFHS and NCAA baseball.
Yes, I know FSPR doesn't exist in softball. I'm just pointing out that NFHS and NCAA softball aren't the "rogue" organizations some make them out to be. There is consistency amongst at least these four sanctions in the expectation that a retired runner has no business going straight into a forced-to base standing up as the fielder attempts to turn the DP. I don't know if this exists in MLB, but you never see a runner from first base going into second base standing up on the front end of a DP. They always either slide at the bag, slide well short of the bag, or veer away. Maybe they do this for self-preservation purposes more so than anything else. Curious if other softball sanctions (e.g., USSSA, NSA, etc.) say anything about this. |
And what happens when the runner in fear of being called for INT slides early and is not ruled out on the force?
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