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bbman Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:53pm

3 ft running lane
 
Could someone explain this nfhs case play?

8.2.5 SITUATION B: R1 is on third, and the batter receives a base on balls. The batter-runner runs to first completely in fair territory (outside of the three-foot running lane) the last half distance to first. The catcher throws the ball to first and the throw strikes the batter-runner. RULING: If the umpire judges that the batter runner interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.
COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases. (8-2-6; 8-3-11; 8-6-10c).

What kind of legitimate play was the catcher making?
Why was she throwing to first when the batter received a walk (and the runner wasn't even to first base yet?

Thanks?

CecilOne Fri Mar 15, 2019 09:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbman (Post 1031051)
Could someone explain this nfhs case play?

8.2.5 SITUATION B: R1 is on third, and the batter receives a base on balls. The batter-runner runs to first completely in fair territory (outside of the three-foot running lane) the last half distance to first. The catcher throws the ball to first and the throw strikes the batter-runner. RULING: If the umpire judges that the batter runner interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.
COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases. (8-2-6; 8-3-11; 8-6-10c).

What kind of legitimate play was the catcher making?
Why was she throwing to first when the batter received a walk (and the runner wasn't even to first base yet?

Thanks?

Whether we agree with the ruling or not:
- it does not matter why
- could be legitimate to keep the BR from advancing, deceive the other runner, be sure it was really ball 4, ...

Those issues were discussed at length when this ruling first occurred and it basically comes down to a BR is a BR, regardless of why.

Blueplate Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:10am

Some teams on offense with a runner at 2nd and ball 4 on BR will turn this into a steal of 2nd base. To try to prevent this the defense will make a throw to 1st, but they have to be aware of the runner at 3rd.

May work, may not.

jmkupka Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:11pm

Common practice for a catcher I knew (FP men's league) to fire the ball down to F3 (1-2 steps off the bag) to prevent the walk(ing) batter from taking off with runner on 3b.

So, in his case anyway, he wasnt trying to plunk the BR for a cheap out, but a legitimate play to prevent a potential score.

A walked batter who interferes with this will be called out ...

RKBUmp Fri Mar 15, 2019 06:28pm

I still say its a stupid play to throw to 1st base to try and keep a walked batter from advancing to 2nd with a runner on 3rd. Pretty easy to beat this supposed play, throwing to first never activates the lookback rule so the runner at 3rd can stay off the base as long as they want, and the ball is 40' further away from them than it would be if the pitcher had it. Ya, you may have thrown to F3 at 1st, but if I was the offensive coach I would simply have my walked batter overrun 1st base down the line a little and then make a wide arc toward 2nd base. The lookback rule isn't in force because F3 has the ball, and now F3 has to decide to chase after the batter/runner made a wide turn to 2nd and let the runner on 3rd advance home, throw to 2nd to try and play on the batter/runner advancing and let the runner on 3rd advance home, or simply let the batter/runner advance to 2nd uncontested and keep the runner at 3rd.

chapmaja Fri Mar 15, 2019 08:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 1031070)
I still say its a stupid play to throw to 1st base to try and keep a walked batter from advancing to 2nd with a runner on 3rd. Pretty easy to beat this supposed play, throwing to first never activates the lookback rule so the runner at 3rd can stay off the base as long as they want, and the ball is 40' further away from them than it would be if the pitcher had it. Ya, you may have thrown to F3 at 1st, but if I was the offensive coach I would simply have my walked batter overrun 1st base down the line a little and then make a wide arc toward 2nd base. The lookback rule isn't in force because F3 has the ball, and now F3 has to decide to chase after the batter/runner made a wide turn to 2nd and let the runner on 3rd advance home, throw to 2nd to try and play on the batter/runner advancing and let the runner on 3rd advance home, or simply let the batter/runner advance to 2nd uncontested and keep the runner at 3rd.

I saw the throw to first work a couple times in the same game. (The reason one team was part of a top HS program in the state and the other was part of a program that rarely wins any games).

First was a runner on third and on ball 3 they throw down to first. Runner from third takes off home and is nailed at the plate.

Second time was a couple innings later and happened on ball 4. Same result, out at the plate, but that play they also got the out at second when the BR after reaching first tried going to second and was thrown out for the double play. Strangest double play I've seen.

Manny A Tue Mar 19, 2019 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbman (Post 1031051)
Could someone explain this nfhs case play?

8.2.5 SITUATION B: R1 is on third, and the batter receives a base on balls. The batter-runner runs to first completely in fair territory (outside of the three-foot running lane) the last half distance to first. The catcher throws the ball to first and the throw strikes the batter-runner. RULING: If the umpire judges that the batter runner interfered with a legitimate play by the catcher, she should be called out.
COMMENT: All bases must be run legally, even awarded bases. (8-2-6; 8-3-11; 8-6-10c).

What kind of legitimate play was the catcher making?
Why was she throwing to first when the batter received a walk (and the runner wasn't even to first base yet?

Thanks?

I think the more telling question is: What the hell was the batter-runner doing running to first base outside the three-foot lane on a walk? Geez, she should be plunked and ruled out just out of stupidity. Why take the chance?

CecilOne Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 1031291)
Can I just challenge your math?

1st base 60' from home, pitching plate 43' from home, front of circle 35' from home.

Where have you been? :)

AtlUmpSteve Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:48pm

Well, I moved about a year ago, and that move and associated chores and tasks took up huge amounts of time.

Then, my good friend who was a college coordinator (I was his backup and administrator/treasurer) relapsed with cancer over the summer, and ultimately passed away. I thought I was busy until then, but adding the coordinating/scheduling, AND administrative tasks with 55 collegiate institutions (along with my high school and rec association) rarely leaves me time to do more than monitor these boards once a month, or so.

Just so happened to have a minute today, and some topics that created an urge to post.

teebob21 Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:56pm

Welcome back, Steve.

Tru_in_Blu Tue Mar 19, 2019 08:26pm

Yes, welcome back Steve!

I've missed your insightful and educational posts.

Hope you'll be able to carve out a little time for this forum.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:49pm

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Can I just challenge your math?

1st base 60' from home, pitching plate 43' from home, front of circle 35' from home.


Agree.

I have always argued that the pitcher should always get the ball since she is the closest to all bases and active runners.

chapmaja Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 1031314)
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Can I just challenge your math?

1st base 60' from home, pitching plate 43' from home, front of circle 35' from home.


Agree.

I have always argued that the pitcher should always get the ball since she is the closest to all bases and active runners.

If the pitcher gets the ball it defeats the purpose of the defense throwing to first base, which is often to draw the offense into trying a delayed steal of home plate.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Mar 21, 2019 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031319)
If the pitcher gets the ball it defeats the purpose of the defense throwing to first base, which is often to draw the offense into trying a delayed steal of home plate.

Not if they know what they are doing


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