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SCalScoreKeeper Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:29pm

Obstruction or Out?
 
Hi Everyone,
Got a video clip from a game I was covering this afternoon that caused some controversy. Initial call is out but then overturned to safe as obstruction was called. What say you? NFHS Rules please. https://youtu.be/2pBditB8Qek

Insane Blue Thu Mar 14, 2019 02:40am

Derryl I am going to agree with Ernie's call.

The fielder did not have the ball and her positioning forced R1 to slide early.

I forgot what site you told me you're writing for?

SCalScoreKeeper Thu Mar 14, 2019 04:20am

My story hasn't gone live yet but it'll be at inlandsports.wordpress.com
Are you saying the initial call was right or the overturn to safe based on obstruction?

jmkupka Thu Mar 14, 2019 08:40am

The initial call should have been (upon the tag), dead ball, obstruction, runner is awarded this base.

kennyc1 Fri Mar 15, 2019 07:20am

I'm a coach, not a ref. I want this to be obstruction, I never like to see defenders causing a collision.

That said, I thought the ruling is no obstruction if the defender is pulled into the runner's base path by the throw. SS here was never setup in the base path. She is tracking the ball in the air as she reaches the bag and continues into the basepath to make the catch.

I never liked that the defender could pursue the ball into the runner's basepath, so I like the rulings posted previously. But I would like to hear how I viewed this incorrectly.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Insane Blue Fri Mar 15, 2019 07:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper (Post 1031030)
My story hasn't gone live yet but it'll be at inlandsports.wordpress.com
Are you saying the initial call was right or the overturn to safe based on obstruction?

Derryl the call that was made is Obstruction.

Here is a breakdown of the rule from the Rulebook

Rule 2 (Definitions) SECTION 36 OBSTRUCTION (DEFENSE)
Obstruction is the act of the defensive team member that hinders or impedes a batter's attempt to make contact with a pitched ball or that impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases, unless the fielder is in possession of the ball or is making the initial play on a batted ball. The act may be intentional or unintentional, physical or verbal.

Rule 8 (Batter-Runner and Runner) SECTION 4 (RUNNERS ENTITLED TO ADVANCE) Article 3(A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when)-b

b. a fielder not in possession of the ball or not making an initial play on a batted ball, impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases. Obstructed runners are still required to touch all bases in proper order, or they could be called out on a proper appeal by the defensive team. Should an act of interference occur following any obstruction, enforcement of the interference penalty would have precedence.

PENALTY: (Art. 3b) When any obstruction occurs (including a rundown), the umpire will signal a delayed dead ball. The ball will remain live.
a. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there not been obstruction. An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed.

EXCEPTIONS:
1. When an obstructed runner, after the obstruction, safely obtains or returns to the base she would have been awarded, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction and there is a subsequent play on a different runner, the obstructed runner is no longer protected between the bases where she was obstructed and may be put out.

Insane Blue Fri Mar 15, 2019 08:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyc1 (Post 1031054)
I'm a coach, not a ref. I want this to be obstruction, I never like to see defenders causing a collision.

That said, I thought the ruling is no obstruction if the defender is pulled into the runner's base path by the throw.

Fielder must have possession of the ball in order to legally block the runner's path otherwise it's Obstruction. To my knowledge only Baseball allows you to be in the act of receiving the ball while blocking the path of the runner.

SCalScoreKeeper Fri Mar 15, 2019 01:30pm

The initial call was out on the attempted steal. After a conference was overturned to safe by reason of obstruction. Resulted in the defensive team's head coach being ejected along with multiple fans.

Tru_in_Blu Fri Mar 15, 2019 02:06pm

I am in the camp that this was OBS. Although it was an athletic play by F6, still OBS.

I had to watch a few times to actually determine that there was a base umpire. I'll have to take as face value that his original call was an out as I couldn't see or hear if there was an OBS call/signal.

Perhaps the umpire was less experienced or had a bad angle.

Maybe submit it to KR and he'll include it in one of the upcoming "Plays and Clarifications".

Insane Blue Fri Mar 15, 2019 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1031067)
I am in the camp that this was OBS. Although it was an athletic play by F6, still OBS.

I had to watch a few times to actually determine that there was a base umpire. I'll have to take as face value that his original call was an out as I couldn't see or hear if there was an OBS call/signal.

Perhaps the umpire was less experienced or had a bad angle.

Maybe submit it to KR and he'll include it in one of the upcoming "Plays and Clarifications".

Ted he is both umpires are CIF Southern Section Finalist umpires. Yes the original call was out. The Great Oak coach came out to appeal the call both umpires got together and the final call was obstruction.

As for finding the umpire it's all about camera angle on this one.

teebob21 Fri Mar 15, 2019 04:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Blue (Post 1031068)
The Great Oak coach came out to appeal the call both umpires got together and the final call was obstruction.

So...in real time, if the call on the field is an out, I can support an out. The ball and the runner arrived "at the same time" and the runner never made it to the bag. I've made this call as an out on the field. Right or wrong, I've stood by it.

With the benefit of video, this is probably OBS all day. The throw is up the basepath, and the fielder probably hindered the runner before the ball arrived.

I have more to say about coaches should not talk umpires into overturning a judgment call....but I'll withhold that. If U1 called the out, but had doubt on OBS, he should wave the coach off and go to his partner. Maybe that's just me...

Tru_in_Blu Fri Mar 15, 2019 07:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane Blue (Post 1031068)
As for finding the umpire it's all about camera angle on this one.

Totally agree. Initially I was wondering who was "conferencing" but the description and the video finally clarified that for me.

chapmaja Fri Mar 15, 2019 08:31pm

This is a very tight call. The key is what caused the runner to slide when she did. Was she attempting to avoid the SS in her path or was she sliding to avoid to the base. That become a key distinction because, when the contact is actually made between the runner and the SS, the ball is in the glove of the SS.

Unfortunately, this is one of those plays that seeing the entire play would help. I would say, if we used replay like football does, I do not see indisputable video evidence to change the call.

Tru_in_Blu Sat Mar 16, 2019 08:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031074)

Unfortunately, this is one of those plays that seeing the entire play would help.

I think we pretty much saw "the entire play". If you're looking for 14 different angles, too bad, so sad.

chapmaja Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1031086)
I think we pretty much saw "the entire play". If you're looking for 14 different angles, too bad, so sad.

I don't think we see everything we need to see in regards to what the runner is doing. That is the key part we need to see to make a proper determination on this play. The key part is when the contact is made, the ball is in the glove of the SS, albeit about 7 feet above the runner.

The replay doesn't show the runner until she is in her slide because she is blocked by other players on the field.

This is one of the toughest calls to make because you need to determine when the fielder is in possession, which is way above her head, and when the potential obstruction occurs.

I also would love to know how many umpires were on this game. Was it a two or three umpire system? Who made the call and how was the decision made to change the call?


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