OBS call protested

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I called one that hindered the runner getting up and proceeding to second base, and as a result, had her protected between first and second.

According to the OP, the OBS occurred on a BR (before reaching first) By rule, the BR is protected between home & 1B. If you were going to extend that protection, it means, at least to me, that you believed the runner could have reached 2B safely and the award should have been 2B, not 1B.

Otherwise, the runner ran outside of her protection and is liable to be put out

[CecilOne]

Top of the first inning, R1 on 2B, 2 outs. B4 hit a squirrelly little ground ball to the pitcher's right. F1 fielded it and threw to F3, but the throw was down by the BR's feet. Between F3 reaching for the ball and B4 trying to get to 1B, there was a collision and both players went down. The ball caromed off the players to the fence. As B4 tried to get up to go to 2B, she was OBS by F3 trying to chase down the loose ball.

At that point I called OBS. R1 rounded third and headed for home when she saw the ball go to the fence.

Once B4 got up, she started to go to 2B with the coach yelling at her to "Go! Go! Go!" By this time F3 had retrieved the ball and started back toward the infield. B4 thought better of trying to go to 2B and instead headed back to 1B. Now it was a race to see who'd get there first.

I had come inside once the ball got past F3 and had taken a couple of steps toward 2B when B4 initially thought about going. Now I had to try to get closer to 1B for the play there.

Both players dove for the base. I clearly did not have the preferred 90-degree angle and was probably about 15' away from 1B when I called the runner safe.

By this time, R1 had scored. I called time out, and because I had the OBS call, announced that I had OBS on F3, but that B4 would remain at first base.
-------------------------------------------------------------

It looks like there were 2 OBS, although the before 1st is not clear; collisions are not always OBS or INT. The OBS at/after 1st is clear as called. That OBS occurred.
We apply the result of an OBS based on where we judge the runner would have ended up without the OBS. With the ball quickly retrieved by F3, there appears no chance the runner could reach 2nd safely. The runner is protected from being out between 1st and 2nd because of the later OBS; therefore is placed at 1st.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

[COLOR="Blue"]... collisions are not always OBS or INT. ...

Point of order (chair recognizes the gentleman from PA). In USA Softball:

A - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is playing (rule 1: play) on a batted ball, this is INT.

B - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is not playing the ball and NOT in possession of the ball, this is OBS.

C - If a runner and fielder collide (and is the only "hindrance" i.e. there is no other hindrance or impediment) while the fielder is not playing the ball and the ball and runner "arrive at the same time", then you would not have obstruction. However, this is a very narrow "window" of time to happen.

D - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is not playing the ball and in possession of the ball, this could be: a) nothing, b) crash (8 8 Q 1,2) with an out only or c) crash with an out and ejection (8 8 Q 4).

While your statement is true, we need to train to make the judgement scenarios A and B. Scenario C is very very very low probability. Collisions will most likely have some result other than "nothing." The bad throw that pulls F3 into BR is obstruction.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Point of order (chair recognizes the gentleman from PA). In USA Softball:

A - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is playing (rule 1: play) on a batted ball, this is INT.

Not the case in the OP. (not a batted ball)

B - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is not playing the ball and NOT in possession of the ball, this is OBS.

Not the case in the OP. (fielder trying to catch thrown ball)

C - If a runner and fielder collide (and is the only "hindrance" i.e. there is no other hindrance or impediment) while the fielder is not playing the ball and the ball and runner "arrive at the same time", then you would not have obstruction. However, this is a very narrow "window" of time to happen.

A little confused on this one. If the fielder is not playing the ball, how then do the ball and runner arrive at the same time? Arrive where? This is close to the OP, where ball and runner arrive at the same time while F3 is trying to catch the ball (i.e. making a play).

D - If a runner and fielder collide while the fielder is not playing the ball and in possession of the ball, this could be: a) nothing, b) crash (8 8 Q 1,2) with an out only or c) crash with an out and ejection (8 8 Q 4).

While your statement is true, we need to train to make the judgement scenarios A and B. Scenario C is very very very low probability. Collisions will most likely have some result other than "nothing." The bad throw that pulls F3 into BR is obstruction.

In my OP, I did not call OBS because of the initial bump, although given another few seconds, might have. I called the OBS when F3 clearly tried climbing over the runner to retrieve the ball.

For those of you in the camp that OBS occurred before first base, would you suggest that there should have been 2 OBS calls? "Obstruction...Obstruction."

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

A little confused on this one. If the fielder is not playing the ball, how then do the ball and runner arrive at the same time? Arrive where? This is close to the OP, where ball and runner arrive at the same time while F3 is trying to catch the ball (i.e. making a play).

"Arrive" meaning the fielder, ball and runner all arrive/meet at the same location at the same time. This is describing what was formally referred to as a 'train wreak' which was a more popular term when "about to receive" was part of the rule. Back in the old days, ATR allowed for a collision between runner and fielder without the ball and no call.

Think about it: with the way the rule is written now, there is no "wriggle room" for collisions; possession is the key. If the throw pulls F3 into the runner, we have obstruction. But if the "hindrance" happened at the moment the fielder gained possession (i.e. "the EXACT moment") then we have the old fashioned train wreck. It is still (theoretically) possible, not not likely. Like I say, a very narrow window of time.

In my OP, I did not call OBS because of the initial bump, although given another few seconds, might have. I called the OBS when F3 clearly tried climbing over the runner to retrieve the ball.

However, it most likely was obstruction.

For those of you in the camp that OBS occurred before first base, would you suggest that there should have been 2 OBS calls? "Obstruction...Obstruction."

You can have two obstructions. I have, but at third: BR stretching for a triple, is obstructed going into third. I did not protect to third at the moment of obstruction because the ball, while not in possession of F5, was just about in the coach's box. As the runner and fielder get up to their feet, another obstruction happened, this time between ("on") third, so now I'm protecting to home. Yes, I gave two distinct obstruction signals.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you were going to extend that protection, it means, at least to me, that you believed the runner could have reached 2B safely and the award should have been 2B, not 1B.

So if I saw F3's OBS, and didn't think runner could have reached 2B, I'd be better off not calling OBS??

We've all seen this scenario: base hit to the outfield; BR hustling all the way and takes a hard turn at first base when 3 or 4 steps later she runs right into F3 who is standing there. Runner did not intentionally run into F3, but couldn't avoid her.

Ball is fielded cleanly and returned promptly to the infield.

I have OBS, runner protected between first and second, but don't believe she would have made second absent the OBS.

What usually happens is the runner returns to first base, the first base coach complains about the OBS, and I say, yes, runner was OBS and I made that call.

Next batter.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So if I saw F3's OBS, and didn't think runner could have reached 2B, I'd be better off not calling OBS??

We've all seen this scenario: base hit to the outfield; BR hustling all the way and takes a hard turn at first base when 3 or 4 steps later she runs right into F3 who is standing there. Runner did not intentionally run into F3, but couldn't avoid her.

Ball is fielded cleanly and returned promptly to the infield.

I have OBS, runner protected between first and second, but don't believe she would have made second absent the OBS.

What usually happens is the runner returns to first base, the first base coach complains about the OBS, and I say, yes, runner was OBS and I made that call.

Next batter.

The distinction between what you've just described and the above is where the obstruction occurred. A runner obstructed between home and first can only be protected to second if you think she was going to get there absent the obstruction. We've also made the point here that a runner bumped before first and still stumbling after first is obstructed both between home and first and between first and second.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

So if I saw F3's OBS, and didn't think runner could have reached 2B, I'd be better off not calling OBS??

Never made even an insinuation to that

We've all seen this scenario: base hit to the outfield; BR hustling all the way and takes a hard turn at first base when 3 or 4 steps later she runs right into F3 who is standing there. Runner did not intentionally run into F3, but couldn't avoid her.

Ball is fielded cleanly and returned promptly to the infield.

I have OBS, runner protected between first and second, but don't believe she would have made second absent the OBS.

What usually happens is the runner returns to first base, the first base coach complains about the OBS, and I say, yes, runner was OBS and I made that call.

Not applicable to the OP. There is nothing indicating the BR ever reached 1B.
My comments only apply to the given statement which means that all impediment occurred prior to the BR reaching 1B, hence there is no protection to 2B unless you judged the runner would have reached 2B sans the hindrance. However, since you did not award 2B to the OBS runner, that was not your belief which means she ran out of protective coverage and is liable to be put out.

[CecilOne]

OK, I read
"As B4 tried to get up to go to 2B, she was OBS by F3 trying to chase down the loose ball."
as on the base, having reached it after the initial collision.

Irish & others apparently read that as before 1st base.
No wonder we don't agree. ----- My post 2 days ago:
"Still, I think and hope that all 4 of us would be more in sync seeing the actual play, rather than the written description."

There were only 4 at that time, Young and Slick later, so now I would say the same about 6 of us.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Never made even an insinuation to that



Not applicable to the OP. There is nothing indicating the BR ever reached 1B.
My comments only apply to the given statement which means that all impediment occurred prior to the BR reaching 1B, hence there is no protection to 2B unless you judged the runner would have reached 2B sans the hindrance. However, since you did not award 2B to the OBS runner, that was not your belief which means she ran out of protective coverage and is liable to be put out.

Your first comment:
"If I'm reading this right, the OBS was between home and 1B. If that is the case, your protection would have to be to 2B for protection to exist beyond 1B. That means your award should have been 2B. However, by making the award 1B, you have basically stated your protection ended @ 1B."

I'll say that I didn't call the "first OBS", the one you identified as happening before the runner reached first base. I'm not getting your comment in red above.

Now I called the "second OBS", where the runner is on first base trying to get up. Since I called OBS there, the runner is protected between first and second. That doesn't mean the award should have been 2B. That is my judgment.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'll say that I didn't call the "first OBS", the one you identified as happening before the runner reached first base. I'm not getting your comment in red above.

That is standard to any OBS rule. A runner is protected between the bases where OBS and/or to the base the umpire judged the runner would have reached without the OBS. Your award indicates you only protected the runner to 1B. Once the runner passes that base (1B), s/he has placed themselves in jeopardy.

Now I called the "second OBS", where the runner is on first base trying to get up. Since I called OBS there, the runner is protected between first and second. That doesn't mean the award should have been 2B. That is my judgment.

The OP did not indicate the BR ever physically reached 1B at the time of the 2nd entanglement which is why I responded in the manner I did.