Reversed call at 1st with 2 outs
 

ISA rules. Two outs. Ball hit to infield. Easy out at 1st. 1st baseman got excited and pulled her foot off the base early. Not completely obvious, but she did pull her foot. Field umpire (who was in position right behind the bag at 1st) called the runner out. Defense celebrated and rushed off the field (with me encouraging them because I saw her pull her foot, lol). Offensive coach walked on the field and complained. FU appealed to the PU who overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each and put the defense back on the field. I don’t disagree with the call, but just wanted to confirm it was handled properly for my own education.

I think it was handled correctly from the perspective that the umpires got together to compare notes. Just to clarify, it shouldn't be that the PU "overturned" the BU's call. The PU provided additional information to the calling umpire who then decided to change his original call. (That's how it should work.) Bringing the defense back out was fine.

I don't get the advance of the runners 1 base each. Curious as to the logic of that ruling.

If applying "umpire jeopardy", and the one base each was the judgment of where they would have reached w/o the wrong call; ok.

For umpires, " the FU discussed/ questioned the PU about the call and the FU changed the call"
Better than saying "appeal" and one umpire can not "overturn" another's call.
(Except on Little League replays :eek: :(, maybe others).


I didn't know the "International Society of Arboriculture" had a softball division. ;) ;) :D
Just kidding MC, but what is ISA?

Well, the "i" IS close to the "u" on the keyboard...

Did the base umpire cuss out the plate umpire, or did the assigner hate the umpire so much that he gave him the "FU" initials?

Because that's where they would be if the original call was safe.

That's not how I understood it, Rich.

"PU (who) overturned the call and advanced the runners one base each..."

If the original call was safe, the BR would have ended up on first base. So advancing the BR anywhere beyond first base doesn't sound right.

Perhaps we're just interpreting things differently. The OP didn't mention other runners until later. But putting them 1 base from where they started might be OK.

Where do you have the BR ending up?

And if BU was behind first base, that could indicate that it was a 2-ump system with 1 runner on first base at the time. (And BU should have been closer to second base.) Otherwise, it would indicate that there were no runners on, or the BU was clueless.

I read it as the reversal of the call on the BR forced other runners up a base where appropriate. If that wasn't the case, I agree with your questioning of the award.

Thanks guys! I've had a good laugh too. ISA stands for Independent Sports Association. I think they're primarily based in the Southeast. To clarify, the umpires only advanced the runners on 2nd and 3rd. The batter was left at 1st. He said it was a judgement call. I agree they both were in the process of advancing during the play (with 2 outs), but oh well. The first baseman heard the "out" call and started toward the dugout (leaving us to predict whether or not the runner on 3rd would have scored if the 1st baseman had thrown the ball home). The thing that really bothered me was the fact the offensive coach was the reason the field umpire asked for help from the plate umpire even though it was his call and he was in the best position to make the call. In the game prior, I asked for basically the same thing after 2 badly missed calls at home plate, and I was told no.

EDIT--I just realized your confusion about the base runners. I failed terribly to mention the runners on 2nd and 3rd before the play began. 1st was unoccupied. Sorry.

I know nothing about ISA or their mechanics or umpiring positioning. In the 2 sanctions that I work, the BU should have been in what we refer to as the "C" position - behind and off the right shoulder of the short-stop. This assumes a fast pitch game. But even if it was a slow pitch game, the BU should not have been positioned behind first base.

Again, based on USA or NFHS, I think moving the runners from second and third up one base was the correct call. This would be similar to the result if F3 had just dropped the ball at first. Each runner probably would have advanced 1 base and BR safe at first.

The offense's coach was well within his rights to ask the BU to check with his partner. The BU did not have to check, but most umpires will acknowledge the request if made respectfully.

I had a banger in a game last week, third out of the inning. The offense's coach came out to ask me about the call and if I'd check with my partner. He stated that he thought F3 pulled his foot and that he thought the runner beat the throw anyway. I said the judgment of beating the throw would stand but that I would check with my partner on the pulled foot request. Partner said there was no pulled foot, so the call stood.

The B/R is at first. Everyone else advances, forced or not, because that's where they would be with a safe call.

I was going with an "umpire jeopardy" situation being resolved with the umpires judging the result if the call was originally correct.
In this OP, judgment of whether the runners would have advanced even if the call was safe.

On second thought, was it too late for an "umpire jeopardy" rectification?
"Defense celebrated and rushed off the field "

Would you be asking if it was the second inning?

I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".

Nothing precludes asking for help. One can if one wishes.

In this replay age getting it right wins.

And yet, the OPer said that F3 DID indeed pull her foot early.

I don't agree that this would "preclude him from asking for help".

So ultimately, and by whatever means they used, the umpires did end up getting the call at first base right.

Yes, why? What inning was it and why would that matter?

Why do you say no help on judgment calls? :confused:

Correct.

That was true before the "replay age". :rolleyes:

Maybe I don't understand this question.

Assuming I do, let's use an extreme well-known example.
Jim Joyce, MLB Umpire who kicked a call that cost a pitcher a perfect game.

He knew he kicked the call.
His partners knew he kicked the call.

My question to you is, why didn't they get together and get it right?

Because the rules say you do not give input on another officials call unless specifically asked by the calling official. He had the ability to go ask his partners himself if he was missing something but by rule his partners cannot go to him and try to get him to overturn his call.

He did not realize it until after seeing a replay in the locker room after the game. Up until that point in time, he believed he had it right. And, IMO, it wasn't as obvious as you make it sound. Any other game this probably wouldn't even have blip on anyone's radar, but this game was magnified by the situation.

If you can find the replay from the CF camera, you can see that the pitcher did not close the glove around the ball right of way. I can see what may have given Joyce a problem, but he didn't mention it in his interview.

OK, I'm not going down the Jim Joyce rabbit hole.
And maybe I have an 0-2 count on the message board.
One more swing, then that's it.

It has always been my understanding that judgement calls should never be reversed (no matter how bad the call may have been); it is a matter of game integrity.

Specifically:
a.) If the calling umpire has all four of the elements in front of him/her, then it is a judgement call; and not legitimate grounds for asking for, or giving, help.
b.) Going for help (with or without an appeal) is reserved for those circumstances when the calling umpire did not have all four elements of the play in front of him/her.

Simply put, "help" is the opportunity to provide additional information that was not available to the calling umpire, not just another opinion on the same set of facts.

I will also say this. We have some rec leagues where a regular umpire will have a youth umpire partner with no formal training. It is clearly understood, that whatever call the youth umpire makes, the call will not be changed by the regular umpire, even if the coaches request.

If this is not the case, I will go back to my assignors, trainers, clinicians and mentors and tell them I got it wrong.

I was working a women's slow pitch game with a partner who was on the bases. At one point during the game, he zoned out and made an egregiously bad call at first base. About the time he made the call, he must have popped back into reality because he immediately called time out (usually the plate umpire's duty). He came in and said to me, "I just blew that call and need some help." I just nodded and said something like "OK, make it right."

He reversed the call, everyone was happy, and we continued the game.

He had all 4 elements in front of him, but because he dozed off for a play, made a bad judgment call. The good news was that he realized it and we were able to fix it.