Runner fails to tag - dead ball is called....???
 

Odd situation last night. Mens slowpitch.

Runners on FIRST and THIRD, 0 Outs.

Liner at the feet of the 3B, but caught. Home plate ump clearly calls him out. Both runners had taken off on contact. Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

Now the fun part...

The runner on first headed to second and stopped there, looking a little unsure of what was happening. Home plate ump calls time. At this point, the runner on second realizes he should've tagged up but didn't. He walks back to first base.

I, in the field, tell him he has to stay at second because time was called and the ball is dead. The fielders protest, and then realize what's going on, so they appeal at first and I call him out.

Was this handled correctly? Other umps at the field agreed that it was.

Defenders make the play on the runner going home.

I'll assume that this means the runner was tagged out, which would essentially be a live ball appeal. Either way, he was out for being tagged off a base.

I think the PU called time prematurely, since the ball should have remained live and the runner from first base was still at risk. Maybe he never would have made it back to first base unless he was sneaky fast or just sneaky.

But when time was called, the runner lost the ability to correct his baserunning mistake.

Was it handled perfectly? Probably not. Handled best as could be expected? Meh - sorta.

3B actually stepped on third and also threw home for a tag play,either not certain he caught it or of the PUs call.

As far as the result, that's what I felt as well.

Ideally, my partner would've waited a couple more seconds to see where the other runner was. But given that he didn't, and that the runner had yet to correct or begin to correct his mistake, I felt like we didn't have a choice. Had he even started heading back towards first before time was called, I probably would've allowed him to return, since the defense wasn't attempting to make any play on him.

...also, is there any sort of rule I can cite to explain this to the angry manager? I normally wouldn't bother, but he said he'd buy every ump a beer if I could prove we got it right lol

I don't do slow pitch but this situation seems to apply to fast pitch as well. My question is why was time called at all. I think the ball should have been kept live in this situation. if runner does not go back to 1st on his/her own, the defense has the responsibility to recognize it and make an appeal. If they don't make an appeal before the next pitch, then play stands and runner stays on 2nd. If runner recognizes he has a problem and starts to head back to 1st, defense will probably realize whats going on and make a live ball appeal or try to tag the runner directly while off the base. But in the case described, calling time complicated the situation.

Once time was called, runners must be given the opportunity to complete any base running responsibilities prior to an appeal being accepted. RS 1 Dead ball appeal.

Runner should not have been called out

From 2018 USA Softball Umpire Manual:

In the Slow Pitch game this is well defined, we call time whenever the ball is returned to the infield and all playing action has ceased.

In the Fast Pitch game this is not the case. In Fast Pitch, any umpire at the plate has the ability to call time when the umpires feel it is needed. This normally is when umpires have rotated and need to move to their next starting position. We should always call time when an umpire has chased a fly ball and needs to return back to their next starting position. Calling time can be accomplished without the ball in the circle, as long as all playing action has ceased. The purpose for calling time in a Fast Pitch game is to allow umpires to pre-pitch as they move to their next starting position. This does not mean you have to call TIME after every single play. When you are a student of the game and understand the game of Fast Pitch and are calling time at the appropriate intervals will actually speed up the game. This does not eliminate the ability for another umpire to call time if they ascertain the play dictates.

The wording is quoted from the 2018 manual as you stated. I underlined one important phrase. "as long as all playing action has ceased". In the play described, had all action ceased? No one was moving but we had an opportunity for an appeal play or for a runner to return to touch a base left too soon. I still say time should not have been called in this case where a potential play still existed. Umpires should have moved to their next position without tipping off either team and then get ready for the next pitch.

Seems like you answered your own question.

Maybe a longer pause by the PU would have triggered additional action. I did think that time may have been called too soon.

I did err on the part about the runner being able to return to first base once time had been called. That was Irish's notation from the RS#1.

I got that confused a bit with a ball that had gone out of play.

The dead ball appeal may be made:
1. Once runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder...

He can return to first without risk of being tagged or forced out?

It really doesn't matter, time was called and the runner must be given the opportunity to complete any running responsibilities prior to accepting the appeal.

You can "what if" this until all college pitchers throw legally, it isn't going to change anything.

The ball is dead, right? Can you tag a runner for an out during a dead ball period other than unnecessarily during a dead ball appeal?

I ask because I'm seeing this rule....

EFFECT Sec. 9. A. (NOTE: the below are APPEAL PLAYS.)
1. Base runners are in jeopardy until they return to their bases, in order to
comply with the several sections of these rules, when the ball is live.
2. No base runner may return to a preceding base after the ball has been declared dead if the base runner touches any succeeding base, or after a following runner has scored.

Does this not apply? Am I misreading it? Which rule are you referring to that allows them to return to first after time is called I can't find it, and am not sure where to look exactly

A rare :D, no only :)

Irish, this is what I've always been unsure of...

1. Runner leaves early, arrives at next base.
2. Defense asks for time, umpire grants it.
3. Runner realizes defense is going to dead-ball appeal, heads back to 1B.
We deny the appeal?

The ball is dead because we granted time. We would never grant time unless, in our judgement, all runners have finished doing what they're gonna do (my paraphrase).

I think you (BU) were correct in your handling of this because the runner had arrived and was standing at the succeeding base when time was called. I think the PU was premature to call time when he did because it denied the offensive player the ability to return to first base legally.

The issue here is when do we call time on a play like this? How long do we wait for one of the teams to realize WTH is going on and do something. Given the OP indicates the runner at second was "wondering what was going on?" This is a clue something is going on in his mind and we need to give him that few seconds to make a decision (and the defense to react).

What rule would that be?

How about USA 8.7.F
Effect 3
(Dead ball appeal) Once the ball has been returned to the infield and time is called, any coach or infielder, with or without possession of the the ball , may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. No runner may leave a base during this period as the ball remains dead until the next pitch.

So RS#1.C.3 states:
The dead ball appeal may be made:
Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be give ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.

In this case, the runner completing their responsibilities would involve not "advancement", but retreating to the previous base in order to legally tag up.

I think the "giving of ample opportunity" may refer to the period of time BEFORE the umpire calls time.

So even if the PU had perhaps called time a bit prematurely, it would seem that once time had been called, that the runner would not be able to return to first base during the dead ball period.

That, to me, seems to make logical sense. I can't believe the rule is meant to allow a runner to correct a mistake while not at risk of being put out.

As I said, if the runner had already began returning to first, I likely would've allowed him to do so because of time being granted prematurely. But, this was not the case.

Though one could certainly read a conflict between the 2 rules.

This rule and rule supplement also applies when a ball is thrown into dead ball territory and is out of play. If that happens, the umpire should make the dead ball call immediately. At that point, is where the "ample opportunity to complete base running responsibilities" kicks in. It seems the same would apply to the OP. Wait until all playing action is ceased, call time, give the runner "ample opportunity", rule on the dead ball appeal if necessary.

From the description in the OP, it seems as if TIME may have been called a bit prematurely since the runner had not tagged up on the caught fly ball. however, once time was called, he does need to be allowed the opportunity to return and tag up before a dead ball appeal can be ruled on.

There is actually a separate notation in the RS for balls that go out of play:
2. When a ball goes out of play, runners must be give the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.

Since the ball going out of play results in an immediate dead ball situation, it makes sense that runners need to be given the chance to correct base running errors.

If it's simply a situation where the ball remains in live ball territory, I don't think that second point is valid. It becomes more the umpire's decision as to when to call time.

And I interpret the second sentence to cover this as is notes base running responsibilities, not just advancing. Then again, I'm referring to immediate action by the runner, not a delay. IMO, that is why it notes in the umpire's judgement. After all, what is there to judge on a runner moving to the next base after time has been called?

Immediate seems to be the pertinent word. And "complete", for that matter.

You can't really COMPLETE something you haven't actually started, can you?

OK, let's change the scenario a bit but keep the spirit of the discussion.

JO game, 2 umpire system.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs.

B3 hits a ball to shallow RF where F3, F4, and F9 are all converging on the ball.

R1 is tagging up at 2B, R2 is going half-way.

F4 makes an exceptional over-the-shoulder catch of the batted ball running away from the infield. R1 tags up and heads to 3B. F4 turns and throws to 3B and the ball hits R1 in the back. R2, seeing the ball go to 3B proceeds to 2B, but never tagged up.

The throw injures R1 enough for her to ask for time which is granted by the PU.

For the "ample time" proponents, will you allow R2 to return to 1B during this dead ball period? If so, under what rule?

If not, is there anything R2 can do once the PU puts the ball back into play? If she steps off the base (even going back to 1B), she will be guilty of a LB violation. Or is the offense just praying for that one pitch to occur?

I feel the entire "ample time" aspect of the rule is based on the premise that the runner (or her coach) knows full well she screwed up, and knows she needs to try to get back at the absolute first chance she gets.

With that said, TruInBlu, I think her "ample time" would be when she sees the ball headed to 3B (and while she's halfway between 1B & 2B), and not a free pass (when standing on 2B) back to 1B when the ball's declared dead.

If y'all think Im talking out of my hat, please let me know....

I'm not talking about delaying an appeal by waiting for action from the runner in question. As previously noted, in the OP, and the subsequent play noted by TIB, it seems the umpires are too quick to kill the ball. When the ball is live and there is more than a single runner, an umpire should have the whereabouts to scan the base paths for any continuing action or reactions prior to killing the play. I have always been instructed to feel comfortable that all runners have completed their running tasks prior to killing

exactly... if we don't rush the timeout, the whole thing will likely resolve itself as a live-ball appeal anyway.

So after several responses, do you feel like any sort of rule has been identified that could help your umpires get a beer? :)

Not that would convince this guy. I left out his accusations of "bush league" hurled at my partner and I :rolleyes:

Just FYI, from July 2010 rules clarifications:

"(T)he umpire should first allow the runner to complete (his) base running responsibilities" before calling dead ball.

Also this:

And from June 2016:

I think the umpire should have protected the runner because of his error in calling time immediately.

These last 2 entries pertain to thrown balls that ended up in DBT. They aren't exactly what this thread was discussing.

They are related and there are differences in how an umpire should decide when to call time out.

They most certainly ARE related. They have to do with an umpire calling time before runners have completed their running responsibilities. Most umpires believe they should call time AS SOON AS the ball goes out of play, whereas they have more leeway in other situations. These plays show definitively that the umpire should give runners time even when the ball has gone out of play. If umpires should give runners time even when the ball has gone out of play, they should most definitely give runners time when it has not.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Another clarification from May 2013:

NOTE: "Once the ball is declared 'dead'... the (runner) has to go back to the base they left too soon."

The runner can return after the ball has been declared dead. That should clarify.

Sorry. No beer for you.

ONLY if the ball has gone out of play.

That was not the crux of this string. It was an umpire probably calling time too soon. Although in slow pitch, once all action has ceased, the umpire is supposed to call "time".

No. The text says "once the ball has been declared dead," not "once the ball goes out of play". It is addressing the umpire's action, not the status of the ball.

This is not worded properly. By definition, the ball is dead the moment it leaves play, not when the umpire makes such a declaration.

From one of my earlier posts:

As I said, the issue is when the umpire declares the ball dead, not when the ball goes out of play.

Point is the umpire does not determine when the ball becomes dead, the rule does. Waiting for an umpire to open his mouth does not delay the status of the ball. As previously noted, it is poorly worded

Again, the purpose is for the umpire to delay his declaration so that the runners can complete their base running responsibilities. When the ball became dead does not matter.

And in the situation presented by OP the ball never went out of play. When the umpire opened his mouth was all that mattered.

The runners can complete their responsibilities, like a base untouched or not tagged, as soon as the ball is dead; or for that matter while it is still live.

Why are you fighting this? :confused: The rules clarification was written to help umpires understand when to declare the ball dead and make subsequent calls so that we do not get into situations like the OP's.

Not fighting, my first post on this except teasing Irish.

Just expanding/clarifying. As you said "umpire to delay his declaration so that the runners can "; which means completing running while the ball is dead and waiting for the umpire to announce.

:rolleyes::D

Probably because he knows better :)

I'll stand on, and have since 1989, 8.5.G.Exception.2 all day long.

And that exception says exactly what I have been saying, except for the "declaration."

So it is not exactly what you have been saying. It is, however, what I and others have been saying :)

Yeah, i'm only saying what the rules clarifications say. :)