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-   -   Do You Wait? Do You Get Off the Field? How is this Really Supposed to be Handled? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/103816-do-you-wait-do-you-get-off-field-how-really-supposed-handled.html)

Manny A Tue May 08, 2018 10:19am

Do You Wait? Do You Get Off the Field? How is this Really Supposed to be Handled?
 
NFHS play. Tie game, bottom of the 7th, and the bases are loaded with two outs. Batter receives Ball Four to push home the game-winning run. But she fails to advance and touch first base. Instead, she goes halfway to first, then turns back to join in the celebration.

The abandonment rule in Fed play (and in USA Softball, for that matter) requires the runner to enter dead ball territory to be ruled out. So in this particular scenario, what are we to do? Wait to see when the BR finally realizes she needs to touch first, or when she finally goes into her dugout? Not a chance I'm going to be hanging around that long!

But if the defense were to appeal that the BR failed to advance and touch first, what then? She was awarded first on the walk, so do we recognize this as a valid appeal? Or do we ignore it because the BR still has the opportunity to advance to first until she leaves the field?

I really think that in a game-ending situation, there should be an exception to the abandonment rule so that it is in line with the NCAA rule. Once a runner clearly shows no intent to advance to her base, and instead joins in the walk-off festivities, we should either be allowed to rule her out for abandonment, or allow the defense to make an appeal.

Thoughts? Is there a case play anywhere that does cover this situation?

markrischard Tue May 08, 2018 10:35am

If the runner on third touches home, we have a ballgame.

Andy Tue May 08, 2018 10:39am

I'm going to wait until all awarded bases are touched.

If the B/R veers off to join the celebration before reaching first, I'm going to see if the defense picks up on it. If I get any inkling the defense is aware of the situation, now we have to wait until the B/R either touches first base or goes into dead ball territory and rule appropriately.

BretMan Tue May 08, 2018 11:01am

NFHS Umpire manual (pg. 14) says "Umpires should leave the field together after giving the defensive team reasonable time for a possible appeal play".

What's reasonable? If I'm watching and nobody seems to making any move toward an appeal...I'm outta there!

Mountaincoach Tue May 08, 2018 11:08am

I basically see two choices in this situation-- 1) Leave the field and don't look back as soon as possible and let the celebration happen. or 2) Stand right there and risk the possibility of a defensive appeal and becoming the star of a legendary Youtube video for the next 20 years. :D

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 08, 2018 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1021414)
I basically see two choices in this situation-- 1) Leave the field and don't look back as soon as possible and let the celebration happen. or 2) Stand right there and risk the possibility of a defensive appeal and becoming the star of a legendary Youtube video for the next 20 years. :D

If #2 is an issue for someone, they shouldn't be on the field.

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 08, 2018 11:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 1021412)
I'm going to wait until all awarded bases are touched.

If the B/R veers off to join the celebration before reaching first, I'm going to see if the defense picks up on it. If I get any inkling the defense is aware of the situation, now we have to wait until the B/R either touches first base or goes into dead ball territory and rule appropriately.

I'm halfway there. I'm giving the defense an opportunity to make an appeal. If it is apparent that is not forthcoming, my partners and I am leaving the field.

Sometimes I think part of the problem is that you have umpires anxious to get off the field. IMO, if the teams see you watching, either of them, the more likely it is you will see the play come to a resolution before leaving the field.

Manny A Tue May 08, 2018 11:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 1021413)
NFHS Umpire manual (pg. 14) says "Umpires should leave the field together after giving the defensive team reasonable time for a possible appeal play".

What's reasonable? If I'm watching and nobody seems to making any move toward an appeal...I'm outta there!

But that's the problem, in my reading of the rules on appeals. When has it ever become an appealable situation when a runner fails to advance to an entitled base? The four types of appeals in Fed rule 2-1-2 does not include not advancing to an entitled base. The closest one that applies is missing a base, but if the runner never advanced to that base to begin with, did she really miss it?

If a runner fails to advance to a base and enters DBT, we don't need an appeal from the defense. We simply rule her out for abandonment. But if she doesn't enter DBT right away, are we allowed to accept an appeal for failing to advance and touch the base?

BretMan Tue May 08, 2018 12:12pm

(Typical screwy FED case play...)

9.1.1 SITUATION N:

In the last of the seventh with two outs, the score tied and the bases loaded, B6 receives ball four to force R1 home. Because B6 assumes that the game is over, she fails to go to first and leaves the field. The ball is then held at first.

RULING: B6 is out and the run does not score. (8-6-7 Penalty; 8-3-11; 9-1-1 Exception d)


What's screwy about it is that if B6 left the field then why would you even need to make an appeal? She'd already be out. Why write a case play to clarify one point, then randomly toss in a different rule that confuses the issue?

That aside, the rules referenced are:

8-6-7: This is the rule about a runner being out on appeal for not touching a base.

8-3-11: The rule that says all awarded bases must be legally run.

9-1-1: This is the phone number you'll have to call when you call this runner out!

Not really...it's the rule that says the run doesn't score when there are two outs and the B/R is put out before reaching first base.

Tru_in_Blu Tue May 08, 2018 12:55pm

I started a similar thread entitled "Miss St @ Ole Miss (Video)" back in March 2015.

I think NCAA (which I don't work) is the same as NFHS where the runner is supposed to touch first base after receiving a base on balls.

I found this case play from ASA from 2009:

With one out, bases loaded and the score tied in the bottom of the seventh, B5 walks on four pitches bringing in the winning run. B5 joins in the celebration and is reminded to go to 1B by a coach. The defense appeals (a) that B5 was out of the base path, (b) that B5 was aided by a coach while the ball was in play, and (c) that B5 did not go directly to 1B. The umpires rule all runners safe once the batter-runner reaches 1B.

In (a), there is no penalty for leaving the base path since B5 was not avoiding a tag. In (b) verbal instructions are not considered aiding the runner. In (c) B5 did not enter the dugout or leave the field of play, so there is no penalty. In all cases, the run counts and the game is over. (8-1C)


This would seem to imply that NCAA, USA, and NFHS all have the same ruling. But I seem to recall from somewhere that one of these was different. In the sense that since the batter was awarded a base that forced all other runners to advance, that as long as the runner from third touched home plate, nothing else mattered.

Maybe I just heard (and remembered) a bad interpretation?

Mountaincoach Tue May 08, 2018 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 1021415)
If #2 is an issue for someone, they shouldn't be on the field.

Very true!! In the world of everybody holding smart phones and Go Pro type cameras getting hung on the fences more and more, it's inevitable.

Manny A Tue May 08, 2018 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1021423)
I started a similar thread entitled "Miss St @ Ole Miss (Video)" back in March 2015.

I think NCAA (which I don't work) is the same as NFHS where the runner is supposed to touch first base after receiving a base on balls.

I found this case play from ASA from 2009:

With one out, bases loaded and the score tied in the bottom of the seventh, B5 walks on four pitches bringing in the winning run. B5 joins in the celebration and is reminded to go to 1B by a coach. The defense appeals (a) that B5 was out of the base path, (b) that B5 was aided by a coach while the ball was in play, and (c) that B5 did not go directly to 1B. The umpires rule all runners safe once the batter-runner reaches 1B.

In (a), there is no penalty for leaving the base path since B5 was not avoiding a tag. In (b) verbal instructions are not considered aiding the runner. In (c) B5 did not enter the dugout or leave the field of play, so there is no penalty. In all cases, the run counts and the game is over. (8-1C)


This would seem to imply that NCAA, USA, and NFHS all have the same ruling. But I seem to recall from somewhere that one of these was different. In the sense that since the batter was awarded a base that forced all other runners to advance, that as long as the runner from third touched home plate, nothing else mattered.

Maybe I just heard (and remembered) a bad interpretation?

Here is an NCAA Case Play that is not directly the same, but offers an interesting ruling:

Quote:

A.R. 12-26. With a runner on third base and one out, the batter receives ball four. The offensive team is located on the first base sideline and as the batter is walking to first base, she stops to have a conversation with the on-deck/upcoming batter. After a five or six second conversation, they "high five" and both players take their respective positions. The defensive coach believes the batter-runner is guilty of abandoning her base running responsibilities and should be called out.
RULING: Because the ball is live and the batter-runner is obligated to advance on the base on balls, there should be common sense application as to the type and length of delay that occurs before the umpire intervenes and directs the batter-runner to immediately advance to the base or be declared out. Batters who do not disrupt play, but quickly remove elbow padding or even hand their bat to the on-deck batter before proceeding to first base should not be called out. However, if after being directed to advance, the batter-runner refuses to advance, delays advancing, or ignores the direction, she should be declared out for abandoning an effort to run the bases.
(Rule 12.11)

So, the NCAA tells umpires that when a BR walks but doesn't immediately advance to first base, we should direct the BR to go to first or be declared out. I guess that would apply in a game-ending walk as well, huh?

Altor Tue May 08, 2018 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 1021430)
So, the NCAA tells umpires that when a BR walks but doesn't immediately advance to first base, we should direct the BR to go to first or be declared out. I guess that would apply in a game-ending walk as well, huh?

I know bat and ball games have different philosophies from other sports on preventive officiating. But, I wonder if a simple statement like "Ball 4, make sure you touch first" would be enough to keep you from being a Youtube star.

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 08, 2018 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 1021434)
I know bat and ball games have different philosophies from other sports on preventive officiating. But, I wonder if a simple statement like "Ball 4, make sure you touch first" would be enough to keep you from being a Youtube star.

That maybe considered coaching. Don't they already have a few people to do that?

Altor Tue May 08, 2018 10:53pm

Like I said...different philosophies


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