Protection Between Bases with No other Runners

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Irish, I believe I PMed you about it on the NFHS facebook page that you are not a member of. I had presented a play involving a batter/runner obstructed while rounding 1st on an overthrow and runs face first into F3. She starts to advance to 2nd by a couple of steps, thinks better of it because F9 had backed up the throw and returns to 1st. The ball is thrown to the pitcher who is not in the circle when the coach tells the runner the umpire called obstruction and she gets 2nd base. The runner starts to trot to 2nd when the pitcher runs over and tags her. This play is what prompted Manny to post a similar question here regarding exactly when the protection is cancelled.

Probably 95% of the comments are the obstruction protection ended as soon as the runner returned to 1st and the out stands.

There is another fairly large group that says exception 1 under the NFHS rules does not apply because there is no other runner, therefore there can be no subsequent play and the rule does not apply, the out stands.

Any rule which involves a play on a subsequent runner voids this argument 100% of the time. Simply cannot happen

Many also point to 8-4-3-b which says the runner is out if the proceed past the base they are protected to. That portion of the rule is very poorly worded in NFHS, in USA it adds the comment along the lines of "or proceeds beyond the 2 bases where obstructed."

Several try to use case play 8-4-3-situation G which really has nothing to do with the play other than there was a batter/runner obstructed while rounding 1st base.

Probably the best response was, and fortunately there was only the one, the ball being thrown back to the pitcher constituted a play since there were no other runners on base and that cancelled the obstruction.

Unless the pitcher is in the immediate vicinity of the runner when receiving the ball, it does not meet the definition of a play. Once the pitcher begins to chase the runner, that would be a play, but still does not negate the OBS ruling.

Many claim to have contacted their rules interpreters or UIC's and the responses are split, the majority being the out stands as the obstruction was cancelled when the runner returned to 1st.

I have contacted our former state assistant UIC, our current state UIC and another official in our state USA staff, all of whom agree the obstruction protection is still in place.

I presented the same play to our state NFHS rule interpreter and he came back with all of the same reasons I have posted above for the protection was cancelled and the out stands and referenced case play 8-4-3 situation G, which again has absolutely nothing to do with when the obstruction protection is cancelled.

There are well over 200 responses in the thread and as I stated, the vast majority of them are the obstruction is over and the out stands. No one is budging with all insisting they are correct. This is one of those situations where no one is going to accept the answer until national weighs in.

So, it seems the issue here is when and why is the OBS is dropped. As noted, any citation involving a subsequent runner is invalid.

That brings us to the umpire's judgment of where the OBS occurred. IMO when it occurs at a base AND it affected the path or actions of the runner beyond the base, the "between base" protection extends to the base beyond that where the OBS was initiated.

As an example, if a runner is approaching 2B and is OBS and forced to go wide to the outside, not only has s/he been deprived of access to a given path to 2B, but due to the OBS, now has a 65-70 ft distance to 3B. IMO, that forced change in path between 2B & 3B is just as much part of the OBS as that which impeded the runner's approach/access to 2B. Thus, I would protect that runner between 2B & 3B. Same would apply with a play at 1B or 3B.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That brings us to the umpire's judgment of where the OBS occurred. IMO when it occurs at a base AND it affected the path or actions of the runner beyond the base, the "between base" protection extends to the base beyond that where the OBS was initiated.

As an example, if a runner is approaching 2B and is OBS and forced to go wide to the outside, not only has s/he been deprived of access to a given path to 2B, but due to the OBS, now has a 65-70 ft distance to 3B. IMO, that forced change in path between 2B & 3B is just as much part of the OBS as that which impeded the runner's approach/access to 2B. Thus, I would protect that runner between 2B & 3B. Same would apply with a play at 1B or 3B.

Two things which seem to need frequent explanation, hopefully this well said.

[jmkupka]

"...protection between the bases remains until ALL PLAY ENDS (ball in circle, and runners stopped on their base)"

F6 runs OBS runner back to the protected base. While still holding the ball, asks for and receives TIME. All play has ended at that point.

Not trying to pick nits, but I'd like to clarify the parenthetical, especially the "and".

[jmkupka]

have submitted a request for a rules interpretation to Vickie Van Kleeck, NCAA Softball Secretary-Rules Editor, regarding application of 9.4.3.1 when there are no other runners on base except OBS runner.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

have submitted a request for a rules interpretation to Vickie Van Kleeck, NCAA Softball Secretary-Rules Editor, regarding application of 9.4.3.1 when there are no other runners on base except OBS runner.

I asked Vickie as well. Haven't heard anything back from her.

[jmkupka]

Nor have I... I'm guessing they don't respond personally to individual inquiries, rather they post the more interesting ones in their next release of Ask Dee.

As with almost every other controversial interp I find on this forum, this one faced immediate rejection among my peers.

I really hope to see Dee's/Vickie's response somewhere. This play will happen someday, Im sure of it...

[RKBUmp]

If they come back with the obstruction is cancelled as soon as the runner touches the base they would have reached then the rule really needs to be rewritten. The rule states an obstructed runner cannot be put out between the 2 bases where obstructed and then gives the requirements to cancel that protection. If those requirements are not met there is no other exception to call a runner out between those 2 bases.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Nor have I... I'm guessing they don't respond personally to individual inquiries, rather they post the more interesting ones in their next release of Ask Dee.

As with almost every other controversial interp I find on this forum, this one faced immediate rejection among my peers.

I really hope to see Dee's/Vickie's response somewhere. This play will happen someday, Im sure of it...

Still haven't heard back from Vickie. Haven't seen anything posted in the other forums where this was discussed either.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

"...protection between the bases remains until ALL PLAY ENDS (ball in circle, and runners stopped on their base)"

F6 runs OBS runner back to the protected base. While still holding the ball, asks for and receives TIME. All play has ended at that point.

Not trying to pick nits, but I'd like to clarify the parenthetical (especially the "and")

If I were the rules editor, you would have a difficult getting me to codify what happens when the umpire DOESN'T follow approved mechanics. Because the right answer when F6 requests time in that instance is to not grant it, until the ball is in the circle, because we don't grant time to stop play.

The exception is when the ball is wet; we don't force the pitcher to handle the wet ball. Any other time, F6 needs to get the ball to F1 in the circle. If F6 cannot accomplish that, then the runners need to be free to advance, not limited by the umpire.

[jmkupka]

Thanks Steve, absolutely fine with that.

For the record, I did not include that comment when submitting my question to NCAA. That was my own side-attempt at knowing something

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And out of the 100k times a day the opportunity arises, just how many times does a pitcher just wander outside the circle or drop the ball or feign a play? As previously noted, that was part the garbage the LBR was created to eliminate.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If I were the rules editor, you would have a difficult getting me to codify what happens when the umpire DOESN'T follow approved mechanics. Because the right answer when F6 requests time in that instance is to not grant it, until the ball is in the circle, because we don't grant time to stop play... Any other time, F6 needs to get the ball to F1 in the circle. If F6 cannot accomplish that, then the runners need to be free to advance, not limited by the umpire...

Unless, of course, we judge it to be rare that something might happen!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Unless, of course, we judge it to be rare that something might happen!

You mean like a pitch or batted ball hitting a bird in flight? Don't see too many rules addressing that.