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jmkupka Mon Jun 12, 2017 02:02pm
Checked swing-D3K
 
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

Mountaincoach Mon Jun 12, 2017 02:28pm
Isn't this the rare occasion where the BU is instructed to call the swing immediately and not wait on the appeal from anyone else? Secondly, as a coach, I'd probably want to strangle my F3 if she decided to become the umpire and then toss the ball to the circle prematurely.

CecilOne Mon Jun 12, 2017 04:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
Nonsense !!! The act of strike 3 uncaught happened when it happened, identifying it later does not change the timing. If then, the umps decide they need the jeopardy rule, a different step.

MT 73 Mon Jun 12, 2017 04:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
I am utterly confused.
Why is the first baseman(F3) deciding whether or not the batter went?
In any case this is an example of bad umpire mechanics.
The PU should have immediately stated "Yes she did" or "No she didn't"
If it is the former and If I were the PU I will then give a safe signal and verbilize "No Catch"
Now that my job is completed the players should know what to do.

teebob21 Mon Jun 12, 2017 06:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 U1 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
The strike happened when the batter swung in the judgment of U1, IF the plate umpire went for help on the swing. Base umpires should not rule on a check swing based on a player/coach request, but on the request of the PU. I assume that's what happened here, but if not...ugh. No comment beyond "ugh...that's postgame material". Now, advanced crews who pre-game this -- maybe the base umpire makes a ruling without the PU asking on 2 strikes, but that's a deviation I don't use even with my most trusted partners.

It matters not one whit how long it takes for U1 to communicate that to the PU and the teams, "appealed" or otherwise. If F2 threw to 1B, and F3 touched 1B while in possession of the ball before the runner got there...it's an out. The BU should acknowledge the strike with a hammer, then make it clear (point) that the BR is out on the throw to 1B.

josephrt1 Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:08am
Boy was i confused with some of these responses. There are 3 or 4 scenarios I could envision from this OP.

1. F2 did not return ball directly to the pitcher. Since PU did not call this a strike, it is ball 1. Since the ball did not go to the pitcher, should PU have called ball 2? The defense would also realize he wasn't giving them the 3rd strike and they would need to ask for help. if after PU asks for help the BU does signal a swing, then PU would announce Strike 3, and BU would signal out at 1st. (even if the throw down was before the BU called it a swing.)

2. What if you modify the OP and we have a full count. Batter and PU think it was a check swing. Batter trots down to 1st. BU makes no call when F2 throws to F3 and treats like a Base on Balls and not a DTS because PU never signaled strike. After catcher realizes BU did not make an out call and runner standing on 1B, Catcher would realize something wrong and ask PU, "didn't she swing" which would prompt the "Partner. Did she swing?" BU signals strike and BU then signals "Out" since the throw beat the runner.

3. I never heard of a situation where a BU is suppose to call the swing without any question being directed from the PU. That would be chaos.

4. The PU should have called (Verbally. not just not make a strike call) it a ball if he wasn't calling it a strike so that batter and catcher and his partner knew what the call was.

Mountaincoach Tue Jun 13, 2017 04:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by josephrt1 (Post 1006860)
Boy was i confused with some of these responses.

3. I never heard of a situation where a BU is suppose to call the swing without any question being directed from the PU. That would be chaos.

From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

teebob21 Tue Jun 13, 2017 06:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1006863)
From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.
This is the "advanced" mechanic I referred to earlier...it's more of a baseball thing (as shown by the MLB manual quoted above), but it's not something I do. It's super late here...I will post responses to joseph's questions tomorrow.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006848)
I am utterly confused.
Why is the first baseman(F3) deciding whether or not the batter went?
In any case this is an example of bad umpire mechanics.
The PU should have immediately stated "Yes she did" or "No she didn't"
If it is the former and If I were the PU I will then give a safe signal and verbilize "No Catch"
Now that my job is completed the players should know what to do.
As the plate umpire, you do not say, "No she didn't." You simply call it a ball.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1006863)
From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.
At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.

Mountaincoach Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006877)
At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.
LOL. Very good point. The police would probably be involved before the dust settled.

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006876)
As the plate umpire, you do not say, "No she didn't." You simply call it a ball.
I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.
It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.
I am sure that my doing so, even if not the approved mechanic, will not cause the world to end.

CecilOne Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.
"Ball" == " I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up"

CecilOne Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.
"Safe" == "That's nothing" and is acceptable for umpires.

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006879)
I like to do preventative umpiring and in this case I want all to know that I acknowledge the checked swing and felt that she/ he held up.

It is similar to giving a safe signal with a verbal "That's nothing" when appropriate.

I am sure that my doing so, even if not the approved mechanic, will not cause the world to end.


It will cause a problem when you are required to go on a checked swing and your partner says she swung. This has nothing to do with preventative umpiring.


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Rich Ives Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:19am
So if you call "ball" you have told the runner she doesn't have a need to run - so she doesn't, yet then it's on her if you change your mind?

Andy Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:26am
I have heard two recommendations on this particular play:

1. As previously mentioned, PU immediately goes to BU on the check swing without waiting to be asked by defense.

2. PU refuses (in rule sets allowing it) the request to check with BU and sticks with the call of no swing and a ball.

I prefer option 1. Get the call made and let the players play.

My opinion of Option 2 is that it can create more problems than it solves. Yes, it may resolve that play at that point in the game, but can become a problem later with the umpire being perceived as too good to get help on a checked swing.

FWIW, I have NEVER heard of a teaching in softball that allows the BU to call the strike without a request from the PU.

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006893)
It will cause a problem when you are required to go on a checked swing and your partner says she swung. This has nothing to do with preventative umpiring.


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"No she didn't-- Ball!"
Then I hear, "Blue-- can you go for help"?
I step out, point at my partner and ask, "Did she go?"
He says "Yes she did"
I respond, "Strike 3--ball is down" ( As per Jim Evan's manual) or I say,
"Strike 3--"No catch!" while giving the safe signal.
How will this cause a problem?

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006896)
"No she didn't-- Ball!"
Then I hear, "Blue-- can you go for help"?
I step out, point at my partner and ask, "Did she go?"
He says "Yes she did"
I respond, "Strike 3--ball is down" ( As per Jim Evan's manual) or I say,
"Strike 3--"No catch!" while giving the safe signal.
How will this cause a problem?


Just say BALL. You're implying she either didn't or you don't know. Saying she didn't is not acceptable.


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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006897)
Just say BALL. You're implying she either didn't or you don't know. Saying she didn't is not acceptable.


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I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.

Manny A Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
What a crock. How often do we see a catcher field a X-2 pitch on the hop when the batter checks his/her swing, immediately hops up and tags the batter still in the box, and then asks the PU to check with his/her partner for the call? Once the partner comes up with the "Yes she did!" call, does the catcher tag the batter again? Of course not!

EsqUmp Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006898)
I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.


Not in softball. Maybe these were baseball clinicians.


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AtlUmpSteve Tue Jun 13, 2017 02:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006898)
I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006905)
Not in softball. Maybe these were baseball clinicians.
Impressive clinicians are now 0 for 2 in softball rules and mechanics.

But, no, thank YOU for sharing.

Manny A Tue Jun 13, 2017 03:05pm
When he brought up Jim Evans' manual, I realized where he was coming from.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 05:02pm
This situation happened to me in a baseball game, except that we ruled no swing. There was a runner on 2nd and 1 out with 1-2 on the batter. I was behind the plate, and I could tell without help that he didn't go, but when the ball was dropped I called "ball" as I do for every ball. Despite this, the batter ran down to first base. The catcher recovered the loose ball and threw out the runner at 3rd for the 2nd out. I looked up and saw the batter and first and I brought him back. He made the smart play, though. You DONT NEED to wait for an umpire's decision on a swing to run to 1st. There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.

So, as an umpire, I see no reason to subvert the normal procedures for umpires. The base umpire should only rule on checked swings if the HP umpire requests help. I also umpire softball and the procedure should be the same.

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youngump Tue Jun 13, 2017 05:22pm
Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 05:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 1006915)
Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)
You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Mountaincoach Tue Jun 13, 2017 07:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006913)
There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.
I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally. :D

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006917)
You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request no matter in what position the BU was in.
But not so in NFHS ball-- the PU can ignore the request.

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach (Post 1006920)
I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally. :D
When I coached I would always tell my girls if the uncaught 3rd strike was in or not in effect.
And with 2 outs and bases loaded I would remind my catcher to step on the plate if she failed to catch strike 3.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006921)
Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request.
But not so in NFHS ball.
He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006923)
He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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The MLBUM manual says different.
Page 51--paragraph 71 under the heading of Check Swing Appeals---of the 2017 MLBUM:
"Under Official Baseball Rules the plate umpire has an obligation to ask for help when the manager or catcher of the defensive team requests an appeal.."

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006924)
The MLBUM manual says different.
And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.
True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006925)
True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so Quien Sabe?

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006926)
I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so you may actually use OBR.
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006927)
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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Well it looks as if you guys do use OBR, with just a tad of modifications.
HS rules are a whole other animal!!
In addition to Babe Ruth baseball I umpire HS softball but so many of our summer baseball tournaments here in NY use NFHS that I was forced to learn that rule book as well.

umpjim Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006927)
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling if he came come to you or it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 1006929)
So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling or he came come to you but it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 08:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 1006929)
So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling or he came come to you but it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.
No debate.
In a 3 or 4 man crew the PU checks with whichever umpire has the best angle.
Which means with a Lefty it is the 3B umpire who usually gets the appeal.
But--in a two man rotation the BU gets it no matter where he is.
Just call 'em like you see 'em.

MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006930)
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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That coach should have been ejected and never--NEVER--let a coach cause you to doubt yourself.
( However It sounds as if you yourself felt that you had messed up when in fact you did the proper thing.
That is why these forums are such a valuable resource since none of us know it all and are still works in progress)
To repeat---Unless this was a HS game the PU had no choice but to go to you and you did as you were supposed to do--you called it as you saw it.
Your assignor should have backed you up and told the coach that he is ignorant of a very basic rule.
Then again, there really should be a Tooth Fairy and a Santa Claus.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006932)
That coach should have been ejected and never--NEVER--let a coach cause you to doubt yourself.
( However It sounds as if you yourself felt that you had messed up when in fact you did the proper thing.
That is why these forums are such a valuable resource since none of us know it all and are still works in progress)
To repeat---Unless this was a HS game the PU had no choice but to go to you and you did as you were supposed to do--you called it as you saw it.
Your assignor should have backed you up and told the coach that he is ignorant of a very basic rule.
Then again, there really should be a Tooth Fairy and a Santa Claus.
I still think I got the call right. I don't doubt it. The way I understand it is in comparison to officiating your area in football. A LH batter is going to be hard to get a checked swing on. Making that call is like fishing in someone else's pond. It better be a whale, not a minnow. So, in essence I need to make that call a BIG call if Im going to call it a swing.

As for never letting a coach make me doubt myself? That is the challenge I think we all face. I do think umpiring for a full season should be a prerequisite for coaching a baseball team...

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006933)
I still think I got the call right. I don't doubt it. The way I understand it is in comparison to officiating your area in football. A LH batter is going to be hard to get a checked swing on. Making that call is like fishing in someone else's pond. It better be a whale, not a minnow. So, in essence I need to make that call a BIG call if Im going to call it a swing.

As for never letting a coach make me doubt myself? That is the challenge I think we all face. I do think umpiring for a full season should be a prerequisite for coaching a baseball team...

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I was once one of our leagues umpire instructors and evaluators.
When a coach was ejected he had to serve a two day suspension during which he had to umpire the bases with me in a 10U game.
I made sure he has a long, long day.
As to your call--quite frankly I rarely over rule my partner in a checked swing appeal,especially if I am in the C with a RH batter.
Yeah, yeah I know but 32 years in law enforcement taught me to choose my battles wisely.
As to doubting---I became a rule addict because I never wanted to be that umpire who has two coaches yelling two different rule interpretations and not knowing who--or of any of them--are correct.
As to blowing a call--learn from it and let it go but take what any coach says with a grain of salt because 99% of the time he sees what he wants to see.
I wish I could be more of an umpire as my 18 year old son
He could care less what coaches or players think and never doubts himself--or at least he never shows it
Sad to say this will be his last season for awhile because he is getting ready to join the U.S. Marine Corp in October.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 09:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006934)
He could care less what coaches or players think and never doubts himself--or at least he never shows it
Sad to say this will be his last season for awhile because he is getting ready to join the U.S. Marine Corp in October.
Wow, congratulations to him. You must be very proud! I have nothing but admiration and respect for the Marine Corps.

My boys are 16 and 14, and both officiate soccer. They have learned a lot watching me officiate and they don't take any garbage from coaches at all.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006935)
Wow, congratulations to him. You must be very proud! I have nothing but admiration and respect for the Marine Corps.

My boys are 16 and 14, and both officiate soccer. They have learned a lot watching me officiate and they don't take any garbage from coaches at all.

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Thank you.
Yes, I am very proud of him.
Sounds as if you are teaching your boys well.
Good job.

umpjim Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006930)
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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You haven't answered the ? in 3 man. If someone is inside or outside on the open side does the PU go to him and does he give him what he sees? If the code requires the PU to ask you have to give him something no matter where you are.

Mbilica Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 1006937)
You haven't answered the ? in 3 man. If someone is inside or outside on the open side does the PU go to him and does he give him what he sees? If the code requires the PU to ask you have to give him something no matter where you are.
What I am saying, is that I don't think you should call it a swing if you are in the middle of the diamond or looking through the back of the batter, unless it is blatantly obvious and the only reason the PU needs help is because he was blocked out for some reason.

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MT 73 Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006938)
What I am saying, is that I don't think you should call it a swing if you are in the middle of the diamond or looking through the back of the batter, unless it is blatantly obvious and the only reason the PU needs help is because he was blocked out for some reason.

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I agree.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jun 14, 2017 08:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 1006836)
Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
I disagree. The defense properly executed the appropriate play. No need to do it again because the umpires were late to the party.

EsqUmp Wed Jun 14, 2017 09:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006917)
You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Nonsense. If you know what to look for as a base umpire, you can get that call correct from anywhere.

EsqUmp Wed Jun 14, 2017 09:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006923)
He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?

Mbilica Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006952)
What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?
As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11

Quote:
As an aid in deciding, the umpire may note whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body of the batter, but final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball.
It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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Rich Ives Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:09am
Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006925)
True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.

CecilOne Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:31am
Should I ask about illegal pitches, 12" or 11" game balls, cylindrical bats, look back rule, DP/FLEX, windmill motions, live ball walks, or quick moving games on the baseball forum? :( :rolleyes: ;)

umpjim Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006953)
In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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Yes, in 3 man PBUC says go to U1 with a RHB and U3 with a LHB with or without runners. So with a LHB they require going to U3 in deep B with R1 if the defense asks or for some reason the PU was blocked. What you give him is up to you.

BretMan Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:12pm
Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"... :)

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!

Mbilica Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 1006957)
Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"... :)

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!
Well said.

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MT 73 Wed Jun 14, 2017 02:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 1006957)
Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"... :)

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!
Ditto for well said.
Excellent.

MT 73 Wed Jun 14, 2017 02:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives (Post 1006954)
Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.




OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.
I deleted that nasty crack--too late apparently.
But as far as I know only professional baseball uses true OBR.
As I already stated in post #34, Many youth organizations use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and more leeway to extra playing time.

MT 73 Wed Jun 14, 2017 02:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006953)
As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11



It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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The way I was taught to judge a checked swing was to look for the indentation cup at the top of the bat.
If the PU can see it then he did not go and vice versa for the BU.
Not perfect perhaps but an easy way to stay consistent.

EsqUmp Wed Jun 14, 2017 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006953)
As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11



It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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So I hear you saying that there are multiple criteria. I also see you saying that when you are off the line, you can't use some of those criteria. So you must then focus on those that you can use, right?

Mbilica Wed Jun 14, 2017 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006965)
So I hear you saying that there are multiple criteria. I also see you saying that when you are off the line, you can't use some of those criteria. So you must then focus on those that you can use, right?
That is what I have been saying. Im sorry if I didn't communicate it well. Most of the time, none of the criteria that I would use to determine if a swing has occurred are available when I am in B or C. In other words, I can't see where the barrel is in relation to the batter's body unless the bat has come well beyond the point at which my help would be needed. If none of the criteria I would look for give me 100% certainty that the batter struck at the pitch, then I would rule no swing. This is true no matter where I am on the bases. But when I am in B or C the odds of seeing a borderline half swing are much lower than if I am still at 1st base.

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EsqUmp Thu Jun 15, 2017 09:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006969)
That is what I have been saying. Im sorry if I didn't communicate it well. Most of the time, none of the criteria that I would use to determine if a swing has occurred are available when I am in B or C. In other words, I can't see where the barrel is in relation to the batter's body unless the bat has come well beyond the point at which my help would be needed. If none of the criteria I would look for give me 100% certainty that the batter struck at the pitch, then I would rule no swing. This is true no matter where I am on the bases. But when I am in B or C the odds of seeing a borderline half swing are much lower than if I am still at 1st base.

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If you focus toward the cap of the barrel of the bat, you should be able to get these correct.

Mbilica Thu Jun 15, 2017 09:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp (Post 1006974)
If you focus toward the cap of the barrel of the bat, you should be able to get these correct.
If I am in B or C and I see the cap of the barrel, the whole field will know the batter swung. I have never been asked to make that call as the PU gets it every time.

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Andy Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica (Post 1006975)
If I am in B or C and I see the cap of the barrel, the whole field will know the batter swung. I have never been asked to make that call as the PU gets it every time.

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So you have never been in a game where the PU has to focus on a low outside pitch or where the catcher jumps up and blocks the PUs field of vision?

Mbilica Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 1006976)
So you have never been in a game where the PU has to focus on a low outside pitch or where the catcher jumps up and blocks the PUs field of vision?
The only time something happened to me like that, it was a left handed batter and I was at first. I mentioned that one earlier in the thread. I ruled strike and had to deal with a coach who questioned my mechanics and an assignor who called me the same night after the game. That being said, I think everyone knew the batter had swung. The assignor just wanted to know what I had seen because he had to deal with the coach complaining to him. I didn't get any heat for it, in the end.

Frankly, 90% of my career baseball assignments have been behind the plate. I have only been an umpire for 5 years, making varsity in my second season. Last season I had a full slate of varsity games and not a single base assignment. This year, 3/4 of my assignments were plate assignments and I only got base assignments because I requested to get some experience there. So, I suppose this could happen to me some day but just hasn't happened yet.

In softball, I get a few base assignments, but still, I receive far more plate assignments than I do base assignments.

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Tru_in_Blu Fri Jun 16, 2017 01:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 (Post 1006928)
I was forced to learn that rule book as well.
Someone held a gun to your head to make you work those $100 varsity games?! :rolleyes:

MT 73 Fri Jun 16, 2017 07:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tru_in_blu (Post 1007002)
someone held a gun to your head to make you work those $100 varsity games?! :rolleyes:
$114.38


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