base mechanics
 

BU in B slot.
When R1 goes from 1st to 3rd on a steal/PB; the BU has the call at 3rd because it is the last runner.
Please help me find this play in the manual.

As a BU, I always curl around the inside of 2B after I see the ball roll into the outfield, anticipating runner bolting for 3B and ready to take her into the base.

As a PU, I NEVER see my partner do that, and I start up the line, anticipating runner bolting for 3B (and calling "I've got 3rd")

Thanks for asking this question, now I'll know which of the two I'm wrong for doing.

Pre-game it with your partner. In my recent experience the PU will take 3rd 95% of the time. Obviously if its a PU that doesn't move much then the BU needs to get there.

Then you discuss it post-game. :D

This play is not in the manual, but remember the 4 times the base umpire makes a call at third (USA/NFHS - my paraphrasing):
1. BR/trail runner/ last runner
2. First throw from an infielder after fielding batter ball
3. Steal of third
4. Ball that is thrown home, cut off, and thrown to third

I guess you could say it fits under a steal of third and the trail runner.

But look at it practically: on a PB, the ball is behind PU. Why would you make him look for it, and then avoid the throw to third, and then watching for a tag with the ball coming over his shoulder? Not a good position to be in for PU. Ergo, make this is the BU's call.

I always pre-game the steal of second and the ball going into the outfield. I like PU coming up the line. PU will definitely have the 90 to the base while the BU could be straight-lined. So as either PU or BU, I like the PU helping out with that call. Most of our guys cannot keep up with many of the slowest runners these days.

On the PB situation, as PU I'll locate the ball and try to stay out of the throwing lane. I think this one is a bit tougher for the PU in finding the ball, keeping an eye out for batter INT and staying out of the way of a throw. I'm trying to think if I've ever seen a runner go from 1st to 3rd on a PB/WP. I almost have to say it's happened, but I'm not remembering any. Maybe at lower levels when bylaws don't restrict how many bases can be taken on a PB/WP.

All mechanics manuals agree; this is the base umpire's call UNLESS the plate umpire calls him off. It is the base umpire's call because there are times the plate umpire is pinned by the location of the ball and cannot get to third without interfering with the play. There is no manual that directs it as the plate umpire's call on a passed ball or stealing runner at any base.

That said, unless pinned, any decent plate umpire should recognize that he has the better angle coming up the line than the base umpire trailing, and call the base umpire off, whenever possible. Failure to recognize the play developing, or watching it, isn't pinned; it's bad umpiring.

I have always been taught that the plate umpire has the call at 3B on a 1st to 3rd steal/passed ball.

2017 USA Softball Umpire Manual, page 37, paraphrased.

Chapter 4: Plate Mechanics; Section B: Movement from the Plate -- 1a: On a ball that eludes the catcher: passed ball, fly ball behind the catcher, or a dropped third strike, the plate umpire should be ready to move to clear the catcher.

1a (3): After the umpire has cleared the catcher, move to the next area of responsibility; the catch, trailing the batter-runner, play at 3B or the plate.

2a: After going to the holding zone, and a play develops at 3B, move inside the diamond about two-thirds of the way to 3B, to a minimum of 10-12 feet from the base, obtaining a 90-degree angle. Stop, read the play, and make the call.

If it is the "last" runner, where is the lead runner? Oh, that's right, it is the one on the way to 3B.

On a steal, this is the PU's call all day. PU has better range of vision and angle to a possible play

For practicality, effectiveness, getting the call right, YES.
I don't remember having difficulty finding the throwing lane on a passed ball.

But Slick & Steve have good points from the book. :confused:

I think the solution is pre-game and communication.

But this wasn't really a "steal of third". It was subsequent to a steal of second. Check the USA umpire manual 4.B.1 (Page 37). Teebob quoted above.

BTW, though not suggested, I am not opposed to a PU safely moving to inside the diamond if possible to clear any area necessary for the defense to recover a loose ball.

I've always treated it this way: If the BU is "stuck" behind second in position to make a call because there's an imminent play there, then he/she is going to have to play catch-up when the runner slows down or stops at second and then continues on. That, to me, is when the PU should call off the BU for any subsequent play at third.

But if there is no play at second base and the runner simply rounds the bag and continues on to third, the BU should have no trouble moving to third to take the play there. That typically happens when the ball is rattling around near the backstop or dugout, and the PU will likely be pinned back there watching to make sure it doesn't enter DBT.

I'm a little surprised at the quantity of discussion on this...as I said before, I've always been instructed that this is PU's call. Allow me to compare this to another relatively routine play.

R1 on 1B, the BR bunts a ball that settles fair on top of home plate. F2 has no play at 1B on the BR, but R1 advances non-stop around 2B to 3B. F5 throws to 3B to make a play on R1. Who makes the call?

Plate umpire, right? EVEN THOUGH, this is one of the 4 times the book says this call belongs to the base umpire: "First throw from an infielder after fielding a batted ball". I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for the BU to start behind F4 on the pitch and move to a credible calling position on any initial play on the lead runner at 3B, at any level. The ASA/USA manual agrees, but the printed version has a typo. Correction posted here in April: April Plays and Clarifications

Manny, if you have those kind of wheels, good for you. I used to be as fast as the players, but I don't think I've been able to beat the runner to both 2B and 3B on the outside of the basepaths since I was 18 or 19. :)

The PU should never be "pinned" anywhere on a loose ball behind the plate

Avoiding having BU have to chase that trail runner from 2B to 3B and having to try to make a call from incredibly bad angle, possibly straight lined to the play is the goal here. Sure, if there is no play on trail runner at 2B and she is not trying fen slowing down BU should normally be able to take her to 3B. But PU has responsibility to read the play and be ready to take 3B in order to stay ahead of the runner. If the runner advances beyond 3B, PU is at least starting from a position between home and 3B ahead of the runner.

We had one tonight in varsity HS game. I am PU. Batter hits what is easily a stand up double. Partner button hooks and takes her to 2B. A throw was on the way although batter runner was easily safe standing up. Reasonable expectation was if anything a possible play at 2B if batter runner overran so partner held up near 2B as I moved into the 3B holding area..but the batter runner had other ideas and just kept going. F4 took throw from F9 and fired to F5. Since my partner was now chasing the batter runner I called him off and moved in to take call at 3B. She was out by a couple of strides.

Here is another version, copied not mine.

WHO'S GOT THIRD (of course, WHO HAS THIRD would be grammatically correct, and WHO COVERS THIRD correct for umpires)?
The answer isn't "I don't know"!
.................................................. ..........................

In two-person mechanics, there are SIX instances that are the BASE UMPIRE'S CALL:

1) batter-runner on a triple,

2) the last runner into third base,

3) a lone runner on fly ball advancement,

4) any return throw from the plate area, or cut-off by a player,

5) a steal or pickoff, and

6) the FIRST THROW only BY AN INFIELDER

Elaboration:

#6 means that the PLATE UMPIRE has the call at third on the "first to third" play when the runner breaks from second. It also means that with runners on first and second and a hard one hopper to left field, the plate umpire may very well have a FORCE OUT CALL at third base because that is NOT a first throw from an INFIELDER

#4 means that even though the plate umpire has moved up to the holding zone at the beginning of the play, if the throw toward home PULLS him/her back toward the plate area, the BASE UMPIRE has to take the subsequent play at third base

Pregame these coverages with your partner!

.................................................. ........................
Yes, some are redundant. :rolleyes: As copied, not mine.

In both baseball and softball we were taught the " 1rst-3rd signal.
Base umpire is in the B and signals to a PU that U1 has the play at 3rd base.
However if the situation permits the base umpire can call off the PU at 3rd.

On number 6, the first play by an infielder. I'm not sure I've ever quite been certain about how to decide if something is the first play on the infield and based on a lot of pre-gaming, nobody else seems 100% confident either. For example, is an appeal after a catch the first play in the infield? The catch is a play, so it doesn't quite meet the definitions, but most people see it as a first play and it makes more sense that way. If you read it as the first throw by an infielder as above, then you have the situation where a ball is popped up right between the shortstop and the left fielder is dropped and who covers the runner moving from first to second depends on which person picks up the ball which doesn't make a ton of sense. I'm not sure how to make the coverage clearer but finding a better way to express this would alleviate confusion. I don't have my rule book with me, but doesn't the actual mechanic say it's based on whether the ball is hit to the outfield not who fields it?

Maybe just todays distractions, but I don't follow this. :confused:

It is the first throw in the infield. A catch is not a throw, nor is it a play if the ball isn't in flight.

The plate umpire needs to clear the catcher and keep his eye on the ball in case it gets mishandled or accidently kicked into dead ball territory. Moving to third base would have the plate umpire taking his eye off the ball, running with his back to the ball and having no idea when or where the throw is coming from. That puts him in a precarious situation. The base umpire needs to hustle around second and on to third to make that call. He would have all the elements of the play in front of him. He can see the ball, he can see when its thrown and he has the runner and the base in front of him. He may not acquire the angle the home plate umpire would have by coming up the line but thats a small concession considering the other advantages the base umpire has. That being said, in certain situations when the ball and catcher cooperate and plate umpire can safely, without interfering with the play get to third base, I see no problem with him calling for the play at 3rd otherwise this is the base umpires call

Not necessarily true. I can move and turn my head at the same time. BTW, IMO, it is the catcher who clears the umpire. :) Barring the ball ricocheting off the catcher or umpire to the 1B side of the 3BLE, I have no issue stepping inside the diamond and open up to see everything necessary.


S/he will never be in a decent position to see a play at 3B unless the runner falls down or gives him/herself up. The BU isn't going to realize s/he needs to cover 3B until the runner has two steps in that direction and will never outrun the player. BU cannot cheat toward 3B in a preemptive manner. Not to mention, depending on the play, the BU may also need to get around a defender moving to cover the base.

Personally, I'll take the closer distance, flexibility of options and the open field the PU enjoys on such coverage. JMHO

And all we need is to put it in the book, eliminating this discussion. :rolleyes:

Yeah, 'cause as you know, we always agree with everything in the book! :D

"Not necessarily true. I can move and turn my head at the same time"

As we all know that is an awkward running position and why should you have to when the base umpire has all of this in front of him?




"The BU isn't going to realize s/he needs to cover 3B until the runner has two steps in that direction and will never outrun the player."

Most of the time the runner isnt going to make a move to third until s/he slides or slows up coming into second, giving the BU even more of a jump ahad. Any experienced umpire is going to realize s/he is possibly going to need to cover third as soon as the ball gets passed the catcher. Anticipation is part of umpiring and so is hustling. Using these two tools , you wont be as far behind the runner as you think when you set up for your call

And since none of this is covered in the book it is, in fact, opinion. Pregame it and do whats best for you when the situation arises

I keep my eye on the ball while working my way to the library and observe the action from there.
I stay in foul ball territory and only break into fair ground when a play seems imminent.
When in position I track the ball and let it lead me to the play.
In other words I never lose sight of the ball.

So you don't watch the players and what they are supposed to do? Focus on the ball is overrated.

Actually, it is not and because the BU isn't going to be able to get into position to make that call. You know, there is a reason the PU has 3B on steals in a SP game.

How can you "jump ahead" when doing so is going to put you in between the ball and a possible throw to 2B? IMO, any PU who is on the ball and hustles will always have a much better chance of getting a good look at this play.

You might want to check teebob's post (#12) from last Monday

It is called the library because you are reading the action, just as you would from point extended.
But you are in a position to move into 3rd or back to the plate.

Thank you, but I wasn't referring to that, but what I believe is your over-dedication to the ball. Maybe not YOUR over-dedication, but many umpires as a group.

How can you "jump ahead" when doing so is going to put you in between the ball and a possible throw to 2B?

This woudn"t happen. Do you think I"m talking about cutting in front of 2nd base? I'm not. I can only suppose that I'm not giving a good explanation of what I mean as I'm surprised that your'e not visualizing the mechanic. I guess my question to you would be this. How have you, in the past, covered 3rd base as the BU when the PU for one of several very good reasons couldnt get there?

Long distance

I agree its a longer distance. How have you negotiated that in the past when it became apparent that your plate umpire wasn't going to get there?

Head toward PP, but still not getting the preferred angle a PU would have and still far away.

I'm not saying the BU should just discount and cede all calls to PU, but that the PU is closer, will have a better angle and a clearer path and range of vision. Enough so it should be the routine, not the exception

The pitching plate? Now i see why you think there is a chance to get hit with the ball. The initial reaction on a steal of 2nd base from the B position is to break towards 2nd base, parallel to the base line. Why would you then head towards the PP? I,m not sure if that is even possible without impeding the runner or letting her pass and then lag hopelessly behind her.

Is this really disagreeing about alertness, agility and speed; rather than mechanics and teamwork? :rolleyes:

Well, I will be 68 years old soon so i'm not that agile nor am I that speedy yet I have no problem getting to a credible calling position on this play as the BU. For the sake of argument lets say the responsibility of this play falls entirely on the PU. We can all agree that, at times the PU just isn't going to be able to get there. As the BU I'm breaking towards 2nd base parallel to the base line as soon as i read steal. On a passed ball I'ts easy to recognize that there will be no play at 2nd base and I may have to get to third. Since my momentum is going that way anyway I simply loop around 2nd base and continue on to 3rd base. Its really not difficult . I'm curious why this mechanic of getting to 3rd base on this play is foreign to experienced umpires or at least some of them. I'm sure as the BU you have had to get there at one time or another. Let me ask you Cecil, or others that would like to respond, how have you gotten to 3rd base on this play in the past when the PU couldn't get to third base due to one of several good reasons?

Because otherwise, the only view one is going to get from behind or coming from behind second base is that of the ass of the runner heading to third.

Well it sounds like your convinced of that and I'm convinced otherwise so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I have to tell you that I always respect your opinion and consider you a valuable source for correct interpretations on whatever topic comes up on this site. Disagreement makes for good debate. We are on opposite sides with this one. Thanks for the talk