How far does the autonomy go?

[Mountaincoach]

Out of position and becomes a part of the play, literally doesn't even think about the runner coming home, gets knocked down and spun around with his eyes pointed in the opposite direction, and then apparently listens to a player who is slapping the plate and proclaiming she is safe (never mind the obvious tag that he missed seconds earlier). Makes an incorrect safe call (because she said so apparently), gets up, and walks off the field knowing he completely missed the entire play. I gotta hand it to the two field umpires--they certainly didn't break the "rule" and walked off with their heads down. You guys need to understand one thing--these viral videos are going to continue to explode in popularity. When will the motivation to get the call right become more important than the autonomy of the officials and the "dignity of the game"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wki_xonoTJQ


Softball Umpire, Knocked Over By Slide, Calls Safe | FloSoftball

[SNIPERBBB]

To start, it is always our motivation to get the call right.

U1 may have a look at this but he has at least 3 players to look through and U2 is straightlined, anything they could of brought up would likely be no more than guess work.

There isnt a perfect solution to this after the fact without being able to use replay. I would hopefully guarantee that PU will never be in that position the next time there is a runner on third with a ball hit in the infield.

[teebob21]

Yuck all around. This is a good example of what happens when you lose focus for even a second...PU apparently forgot there was R3 and started to trail the BR. So then he gets knocked down making a bad situation worse. So now what do you do?

IMHO, Safe is the correct preliminary call here, as PU did not/could not have seen the play. We can't guess the runner out. The next step is to immediately get the crew together, and see if there is help available from U1/U3 and try to get it right. We don't have replay in this sport, so if no one has a look at the play, then she stays safe. It's already a s**t sandwich, and we might have to eat the whole thing.

The best thing I saw in the video was PU not ejecting the head coach at 0:29 when he throws the clipboard down...IMO prudence dictates that you give the coach about a mile of rope after a game ends like that. So long as the coach doesn't touch me, or tell me he's coming to the parking lot to find me, he can say whatever he wants to this time.

As a side note - I fell down for the first time ever as PU this year while working with Andy....tripped over the grass lip while backpedaling away from a catcher on a foul pop and went down ass over applecart. Things happen. If F2 had caught the ball in my game, or the coach said she did, I'd have never seen it. I would have went straight to my partner for help, because clearly I didn't have all the elements of the play. That's why, and when, we go for help: whenever we are missing a piece of the play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

Out of position and becomes a part of the play, literally doesn't even think about the runner coming home, gets knocked down and spun around with his eyes pointed in the opposite direction, and then apparently listens to a player who is slapping the plate and proclaiming she is safe (never mind the obvious tag that he missed seconds earlier). Makes an incorrect safe call (because she said so apparently), gets up, and walks off the field knowing he completely missed the entire play. I gotta hand it to the two field umpires--they certainly didn't break the "rule" and walked off with their heads down. You guys need to understand one thing--these viral videos are going to continue to explode in popularity. When will the motivation to get the call right become more important than the autonomy of the officials and the "dignity of the game"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wki_xonoTJQ


Softball Umpire, Knocked Over By Slide, Calls Safe | FloSoftball

I bet you win every game you coach, right? Or would those just be the mistake-free games?

Shit happens and yes, the PU made a mental, albeit serious, error in mechanics. Yes, it MAY have affected the outcome of the game, but if you can believe you can point to one call that cost your team a game, you didn't play good enough to win.

And I, too, believe the BUs would have little to offer from 70'+ away with a poor, if any, angle. It is unfortunate, but a "safe" ruling was all that was available since you don't call what you don't see.

I can pretty much guarantee this umpire feels worse than anyone else about this incident.

[RKBUmp]

From your last rant about umpires and getting the call right, you still cant explain what umpire would have the authority to overrule another umpire or how to handle situations where the umpires differ on their judgement of a call. In a 2 umpire system do you want it to be a flip of the coin? In a 3 umpire system is it majority rule?

As for "getting the call right", prime example also on national TV of getting the call right actually getting the call wrong. Florida/Auburn game on saturday, tag play at the plate umpire makes out call. Florida coach asks plate ump to check for a bobbled ball on the tag. Plate ump gets together with U3 who apparently saw a bobble and call is reversed to safe. Replay clearly shows no bobble of the ball on the tag and the initial out call was correct.

People make mistakes, it is a fact of life. Even umpires getting together is no guarantee the call is going to be right just as in the example above. Without reviewing every play in super slow motion replay, which by the way I hate in absolutely every sport that uses instant replay, there is no way to make sure every play is called correctly. The human eye does not see things in 20,000 frame super slow motion with stop action. Coaches arent perfect, players arent perfect but everyone expects officials to be 100% perfect on every play. Yes, officials need to be accurate, but we are humans and humans are going to make mistakes.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I bet you win every game you coach, right? Or would those just be the mistake-free games?

Shit happens and yes, the PU made a mental, albeit serious, error in mechanics. Yes, it MAY have affected the outcome of the game, but if you can believe you can point to one call that cost your team a game, you didn't play good enough to win.

And I, too, believe the BUs would have little to offer from 70'+ away with a poor, if any, angle. It is unfortunate, but a "safe" ruling was all that was available since you don't call what you don't see.

I can pretty much guarantee this umpire feels worse than anyone else about this incident.

No. I don't win every game. And I'm sure the umpire feels terrible. I don't agree that "safe" was the only ruling "available". Why? Because the kid sitting there basically lied to the PU and said she was safe? If he's going to go that far, he might as well ask the catcher's opinion about it too. But he couldn't because the catcher was up and looking for the next play after she did her job at the plate. The point I'm making is the PU had NO desire whatsoever to at least ask the field umpires if they saw anything. 70 feet away with eyes on the ball is still better than sitting on your behind looking the other way.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

From your last rant about umpires and getting the call right, you still cant explain what umpire would have the authority to overrule another umpire or how to handle situations where the umpires differ on their judgement of a call. In a 2 umpire system do you want it to be a flip of the coin? In a 3 umpire system is it majority rule?

As for "getting the call right", prime example also on national TV of getting the call right actually getting the call wrong. Florida/Auburn game on saturday, tag play at the plate umpire makes out call. Florida coach asks plate ump to check for a bobbled ball on the tag. Plate ump gets together with U3 who apparently saw a bobble and call is reversed to safe. Replay clearly shows no bobble of the ball on the tag and the initial out call was correct.

People make mistakes, it is a fact of life. Even umpires getting together is no guarantee the call is going to be right just as in the example above. Without reviewing every play in super slow motion replay, which by the way I hate in absolutely every sport that uses instant replay, there is no way to make sure every play is called correctly. The human eye does not see things in 20,000 frame super slow motion with stop action. Coaches arent perfect, players arent perfect but everyone expects officials to be 100% perfect on every play. Yes, officials need to be accurate, but we are humans and humans are going to make mistakes.

Of course all humans make mistakes. I honestly feel badly for the PU. He has to live with it because he didn't ask for help. It's a prime example of a scenario where help should have been sought. I'm not a big fan of instant replay either because nobody has the ability to televise every game across this country.

[CecilOne]

Coach,
Do you recognize that
1 - an unseen play has to be "safe" because it can only be an out if an umpire definitely sees the tag or catch or touch.
2 - no umpire an overrule another, partners can just provide more information to help the calling umpire decide
3 - runner or fielder lying to the umpire or not is irrelevant?

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Coach,
Do you recognize that
1 - an unseen play has to be "safe" because it can only be an out if an umpire definitely sees the tag or catch or touch.
2 - no umpire an overrule another, partners can just provide more information to help the calling umpire decide
3 - runner or fielder lying to the umpire or not is irrelevant?

#1 Yes. I'm well aware of that. Did he at least ask the other two field umpires if they saw anything? Nope If he had asked them, and they said "we couldn't see it either", then the only option is to call "safe". But I guess we'll never know if they saw anything.

#2 The whole reason I made the post, hence the name of the thread. And unless he asks them for more information, they can't open their mouth.

#3 Of course it was irrelevant. But she appeared to have more of a say in the outcome than U2 and U3.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by teebob21

...As a side note - I fell down for the first time ever as PU this year while working with Andy....tripped over the grass lip while backpedaling away from a catcher on a foul pop and went down ass over applecart. Things happen. If F2 had caught the ball in my game, or the coach said she did, I'd have never seen it. I would have went straight to my partner for help, because clearly I didn't have all the elements of the play......

...and I would have had nothing, since I was too busy laughing at you falling down and tumbling ass over apple cart.....

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

Of course it was irrelevant. But she appeared to have more of a say in the outcome than U2 and U3.

How in the world could you possibly know that the PU was even remotely affected by the runner's comments that she was safe? That is one helluva supposition based on a grainy video with no clear sound of the conversation around the plate. More than likely, he just gathered his wits after understanding what the heck happened, realized he had no look, concluded he had to make a call, and chose correctly that had to come up with a Safe signal.

As for why he didn't go for help, none of us can adequately answer that. Did he assume his partners were in no position to help? Possibly. Did he just want to get the hell outta Dodge? Who knows? Was he still in a fog and forgot that he could ask? Maybe.

What I didn't see is a coach pleading his case that the PU has to get help. I never saw him pointing to the other umpires. It looked like he just had to vent and then quit. He never pursued the other umpires as they exited stage right. Perhaps he realized it would be futile.

Bottom line, there's a lot of things here that we will never know. We can speculate just for debate sake, but to say, "He ruled Safe because the runner told him she was safe" is flat-out wrong, IMO.