ASA - Batter/Runner touches 1st thinks ball is dropped and heads towards dugout
 

This play caused quite the controversy tonight:

Runners on 1st and 2nd, batter hits flyball to centerfield. Centerfielder dives towards the fence and just barely misses the ball. At this point the batter/runner has run though 1st base and thinks the ball is caught and heads towards the dugout.

The batter/runner never leaves the field, but ends up near the 1st base dugout before he realizes what happens. By that time the ball makes it in the infield and first base is touched and the runner is tagged (for good measure). All hell breaks lose after this as the umps have no idea what to call. They eventually agree that since he never made an attempt for second, he's basically free to do what he wants and is safe at first. I vehemently disagreed, but to no avail.

I can't find a clear ruling in the rule book, what was the proper call?

Thanks!

It depends a little on how you acted when you vehemently disagreed. If you were reasonable and took no for an answer then no ejection. If you lost it, then you had to go. ;-)
Seriously though, you're asking about how the protest you lodged will be ruled on? (K, that was less than serious but I do hope you protested.)
On the actual serious front the rules require a BR who overruns first to return immediately to the base. It doesn't sound like that's what happened, though immediate is in the judgment of the umpire. Since he didn't return to first he's subject to be called out on appeal which you did.

The runner is out if he enters the dugout (8-7-U, paraphrased). Did he remain on the playing field?

Was he back on the base when he was tagged? If so, he's obviously not out no matter what happened before the tag (unless, as above, he entered the dugout). If he touched 1B, overran it, and was abandoning his attempt to advance or return directly to the base (8-8-I), he can be tagged out while off the base.

As a follow-up question to the rest of the umpires here: In this situation, if the ball is returned to 1B without a verbal appeal, would you rule on the live-ball appeal? For that matter, is there a live-ball appeal being properly made? (I say no, unless the defense tags the runner.)

Edit to add: I'm sure in the title you mean "runner thinks ball is caught" but we get it.

This is not an appeal play. The runner must be tagged with a live ball prior to returning to the base safely

Safe
 

If the batter stays on the field he is safe. Right call

If I read the OP correctly, the BR/R did not leave the field; but was tagged by a live ball while off the base and not returning directly. That is an out, if it is treated as an appeal.

We have discussed recognizing such a play as an appeal several times; which is the deciding factor in this case.
I would say it is; if the fielder(s) acted as if they were trying to catch the BR/R in a running violation.
If the fielder just tagged the BR/R haphazardly with no apparent intent; then it's back to a question of what constitutes an appeal.

BTW, the OP is very well done, clear and lacking useless embellishment. :)

Again, NOT an appeal.

All we have here is a play on an active runner.

From the OP, it sounds as if the BR hit the ball, advanced to first, then turned and headed toward the first base dugout thinking the ball had been caught. When he realized it hadn't, he returned to first base.

The look back rule doesn't come into play here (assuming this was a FP or modified game) and if it was a SP game, time had not been called as far as we know.

I acknowledge that there was a delay in the player returning to first base, but there was also a live ball. If there was no attempt to second base, there is no play to be had on the BR. The only appeal would be if he missed first base, which was not the case.

Sounds as if the umpires on the field got the call right. I'm curious as to the basis of your "vehement" disagreement.....

So I've never quite understood why a BR overrunning first and turning toward second is considered an appeal. (It has to be executed by tagging the runner who would be out anyway.) But under what theory is that an appeal and going off to wander around foul territory is not. Just because that's literally what it says?

Yes! ;)

Ok, if not advancing and did not miss the base. :rolleyes:

Do you agree with this:
"On the actual serious front the rules require a BR who overruns first to return immediately to the base"?

That's only when the ball's in the circle (8.7.t)
And I don't think it's "immediately", just directly.
She can mosey on back, as long as she doesn't change her mind about where she's going.

Seems like we have discussed this before. While the book does say "immediately", there is no definition of what that means.

Except that he was tagged out.

And being extremely technical the rule merely says that the BR is not out if they return immediately. It says nothing about what happens if the BR doesn't unless they advance to second.:eek:

I agree which is why I proposed a change to RS#1 a few years back and was completely dismissed by just about everyone.

The only thing 8.8.I does is exempt a BR/R from being tagged out after overrunning 1B when returning directly to the base. If the player does not meet the demands of the rule, this is simply an active runner who is in jeopardy of being tagged out as per 8.7.2. If they want to extend that protection to anytime the runner does not attempt to advance to 2B, the word "directly" should be removed from the rule

This is true, there is no "time restriction", but the rule does say "directly" and walking to the 1st base dugout is not a direct return to the base as required.

At the risk of seeming combative, I bet my dollar that the word "immediately" will not be found with a rule cite referring to a BR overrunning first.

The operative word is "directly". 8-8-I

...just being a late night rules (plus beer) pedant, as umpires are wont to do.... :D :D :)

OK, I will claim that dollar.

Obviously this is a different situation with the look-back rule when the ball is in the circle. But to take your challenge literally, here is a citing (8.7.T.2). The word over-run and immediately do appear in the same sentence but not in 8.8.I.

8.7.T.2. A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and immediately stops, must then return non-stop to first base or attempt to advance non-stop to second base.

Please realize this is being done in jest. I understand the rule but just responding literally to the words in your challenge.

Yeah. I admit I did not look up the rule; just took someone's word for it! (Thanks, Cecil! :D)

Hoisted on my own petard -- I'd briefly forgotten that the look back rule covers overrunning explicitly. Well done.

For the record:

Whenever members of this board have gotten together (it used to happen a bit at ASA National UIC Clinics, for example, and a few at ASA National Council Meetings), no bet was ever accepted as a dollar. The only accepted currency was to buy a beer (or 7) for the other.

I get it; beers are usually involved too. This is something I picked up at my old work - when there was a civil disagreement and neither party would budge, the token dollar bet usually got thrown down to settle it. It isn't about the money, it's about the honor, basically. Loser signs the dollar and pays up. Our cubicle walls were littered with "victory notes" like this one. Dont bet if youre not sure. Shame is forever :) - Imgur

"From Matt - Time between pitches rule = 10 seconds." I got this one off one of the umpires at my national this summer. (I wrote on it wrong when I got home - we were arguing the requirements for the hands together, not time between pitches...but Sharpies are unforgiving. I know what it means.)

if was off the base when he was tagged, he would be out. Otherwise you have nothing. Play on..