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ASA - 1B Coach runs out on field during live ball to argue a call at 2B
Championship play. The situation is not really relevant, but for context it was a
For additional context, it was Day 3 of a National and this assistant coach had already been ejected from games on Days 1 and 2. (Edit to add: Not ejected by me.) In my shoes, how would you have reacted/handled this situation? |
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Prior games not relevant. :rolleyes:
Tempting to see if his runners advanced on the loose ball and then call time before they got there. :D :D :( |
I'd be sorely tempted to call dead ball as he approached across the field, BR back to 1B (if she hadn't reached 2B).
Then EJ. Do the rules permit this? |
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If I didn't know, I may have opted to cut him some slack telling him he couldn't be where he was. He was already on the field, i.e. didn't come charging out from a dugout, but should have remained in the vicinity of the coaches' box. If a coach gets tossed, are there sanctions? A game suspension? Tossed twice, out for the balance of the tournament? Are these decisions that would be made by the UIC and/or TD? |
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The moment any umpire sees him on the field, kill the play, all runners return to last base at the time of play being suspended and ask the coach what the hell he is doing in the middle of the field while the ball is still in play? No, that is not baiting, it is a valid question. Maybe he will be embarrassed that he didn't realize the ball was still live, but I wouldn't put too much money on that one. Selection of words "Yes, it's on" may have been considered a challenge to the coach :) Or he may have thought you were referring to the runner, not the fielder. Joking aside, I would listen to what he has to say, dismiss any contention with the call since you were right on top of it, turn and hustle into position for the next play. If he's there when you turn around.......well, you cannot say you didn't give him a chance to withdraw. BTW, couldn't care less what happened in previous games, it should be completely irrelevant. Knowing how a particular coach or player has been behaving and then acting on it shouldn't happen with a good umpire. Do you want to be judged in game C based on a call you made in game A, especially if you kicked it? Just as the umpire needs to prove him/herself each game, so should the player or coach and that goes in both directions. Trust me, if the coach is that bad, he will earn the ejection for this game just as he did in the previous one. |
Interesting feedback...interesting in that it's pretty much what I expected. I did not auto-eject the coach, although in hindsight, I wish I would have. I knew this guy was a Grade-A butthead from the previous day, and I thought it would be prudent to give him exactly as much rope as he wanted to hang himself. You know, the whole "be approachable" and an 'utmost professional at all times' mantra. I wasn't letting his past behavior prejudice me, although from another view, maybe I did by letting him stay when any other coach probably would have been dumped.
The conversation: Him, running: {unintelligible} Me: [Giving a big, high one-handed stop sign while still watching the ball] NO, Coach! Wait until the ball's in the circle. It's live! Him, still coming: {rabble rabble grumble grumble} --Ball is possessed by F1...not quite into the circle, but no one's running. Close enough for me to pay attention to the coach as he's within a few feet of me. I see that neither partner has called Time.-- Me: Coach, you can't be out here. No one has called Time yet. Him: I called time! (more words that I didn't really listen to) Me: TIME! Coach, now the ball's in the circle. What can I do for you? Him: {Bog-standard "How can you make that call?" coach complaint. I don't recall the actual words. He didn't think the fielder touched the bag before the runner.} Me: No, sir, the out stands. The throw was high, as you said, but the fielder caught the ball and her left foot came down on the bag before the runner's left foot reached it. ( <-- I know for a fact that those were my actual words...this was the first time I've used such detail. Another umpire had talked about how specifying which foot was where can sometimes stop a coach in their tracks...provided the coach is willing to listen to what you have to say. This guy wasn't.) Him: You gotta go for help! Me, pointing to my partners' positions as I talk: Coach, my first-base partner is behind the play, and our plate umpire is 85 feet away. I'm right here on top of it, and I could see all the elements: the ball, the glove, the fielder on the bag, and the runner's foot. She's out. Him: You're not going to go for help? Me: No, sir. Him: I can't believe you guys! Me: Sorry, sir. Him, walking away: All you umpires have been rubbish all week! Me, giving another stop sign: PAT, KNOCK IT OFF! Him: {hesitation and surprise that I know his first name} No....uh....YOU knock it off! {keeps walking away} I posted this play for conversation here because the feedback I got after the game was a surprise to me. I thought I handled it well; kept the coach in the game and life went on. The feedback I got was that I looked animated and aggressive during the discussion (which is totally possible as I gave two stop signs and pointed while talking) and that I should have appeased him by going for help in order to defuse the situation (which I 100% disagree with as I had all the elements with 99.9%+ certainty). Thoughts? Quote:
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Ignoring previous ejections you may have been fine in giving him leeway up until his last 2 comments. Should have been dumped at that point.
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Him #2: Very likely ejection. Him #3: Absolute ejection every time - Particularly given the caps in "YOU." Had a conversation once over look back violation: Me: Coach, we are done. Coach: NO WE ARE NOT. Me: Yes, YOU are. By the way, I too would have gone to partners for a courtesy "hey did I miss something? - No? I didn't think so." "Out stands." |
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TeeBob, unless your wording (and it appears carefully stated) is off, I'm going to disagree with the need to 1) have the last word as he's walking away (yes, he commented, unless rubbish is a magic word to you, let him have that last word), 2) throw up a stop sign (as he's walking away?), and 3) use his name during the walk-away. If I'm using his name (and I do), it's to defuse a situation, not to extend it; and you practically invited him to respond to that. Dumping earlier was an option; when you had not by the walk-away point, he needs to do something bigger to justify an ejection at that point (turning back and yelling, or using a profanity). And, no, I'm not getting "help" to appease him on this judgment call. |
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Coach, the fact that you disagree with my call is not a reason for me to go for help. Interesting feedback....I have also gotten similar feedback when I used a stop sign with a coach. It goes back to my basketball officiating days when the stop sign was a good tool to use on a chirping coach when the ball was in play and your focus needed to be elsewhere. On the diamond, however, I can see where it would look aggressive, but in your case, I think some aggression was needed as the ball was still live. I completely disagree with going for help only to appease him. Too many coaches today think we should go for help whenever they ask and too many umpires do it. |
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Let's see here. He said he called time during a live ball situation, which is considered an unsportsmanlike act IIRC. He, by running on the field did charge the umpire, another unsportsmanlike act. He came onto the field during a live ball situation, which is an unsportsmanlike act (and is one I generally won't punish if it is a stand alone situation). Even if he gets this far, which isn't real likely, he is most definitely gets tossed upon his last two comments. |
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I like the IAWE process: ignore, acknowledge, warn, eject. I didn't feel like that parting shot should be ignored, as it was the same type of phrase he'd already used to end his games, and I'd already acknowledged his jab before he turned away. Could I have let it slide? Yes. Should I have? Probably. But at the moment when he said it, my gut reaction was to dump him then and there. He was walking away...the optics of the situation would have been bad. I chose to warn, a stern one at that. It was effective; I definitely got his attention and got the message across that he was toeing the line. The second stop sign was probably pure reflex, and something I will work on eliminating. So, why didn't I eject for his final YOU comment? Because honestly, it was flat-out funny. I can't properly convey it on the forum, but it sounded like a 5th-grade playground comeback, said by a grown man. I had a hell of a time keeping a poker face out there after he said that. Maybe it's a bad habit to carry over into JO play, but it's something I picked up working men's FP. When an adult player or coach says something to make me laugh (or want to), I tend to let them live. |
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Again, no reason to further engage him. Ever notice how stupid MLB umpires look when they start arguing with coaches? They get animated and loud and flush and all for absolutely nothing, but a lifetime on medicine to control his blood pressure. Have you ever seen an umpire lose an argument on the field? So why jeopardize one's life and career over it? Of course, if the coach won't give up or just will not stop running at the mouth or crosses the line for you, just continue to do your job and remove him from the game. |
I do not care if I did know or did not know that the 1B Coach (an Asst. Coach) had been ejected in his team's two previous games (I would like to know how this Coach has not been been suspended but that is a discussion for another thread.) and it may be because I have gotten crotchety in my old age, but the instant he came running out on to the diamond during play to complain about my call, he is gone for his third straight game.
MTD, Sr. |
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AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! ONE MILLION PERCENT. umps who ask for help on calls that have no business getting help are screwing the rest of us. For me, as soon as I told him the ball was live an she didn't immediately tuck tail and head back to his box, he's gonna ride the lightening. Him maybe not realizing it was a live ball is the only benefit of doubt he should have got. Anything else past that would have been an ejection with me. Ask Bobby Cox if your previous actions mean something on the field. You don't get any rope when you have been dumped two days in a row. And I can't believe tournament rules would have even allowed this jack hole back in the complex, let alone on the field. |
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As previously noted, each game starts anew. OP was aware of this coach's antics as he had this team in a previous game, though the coach didn't last a half an inning. |
I realize each game is a new beginning, but obviously this particular assistant coach appears to have a real problem. Being as the head coach is responsible for the actions of their staff and team, at what point do you send the head coach packing along with the assistant?
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I find it shocking as well that he was not suspended/banned from the event for multiple ejections. I personally don't buy the entire it's too hard to set up a committee to do it properly argument. If it is done in advance, the committee is already made up. At that point the only tricky part is getting the committee together to be able to rule when needed. This could, depending on who is on the committee and the schedule of events, be a nightmare, but having the committee already set up should not be a problem at all. |
UIC + TD = committee
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I am 90% sure I would have ejected a coach immediately if I saw him charging the field during a live ball... but assuming I didn't...
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National tourney or not, by most assc rules be it ASA, USSSA, whatever...one ejection is automatically next game as well. Two in two days would be the whole tournament, or should have been anyways
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And you want to penalize an individual for breaking the rules by doing the same thing? |
Full disclosure that I don't do ASA, for no specific reasons. But, in USSSA and NFHS, I would not be speaking of breaking a rule. Two ejections two straight days would be done for tournament. Unless something changes in a national tournament
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IDK if USSSA has a code that governs how such things are handled at their national tournaments, but ASA does. That was Mike's point. |
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