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BR: Out or Safe?
Relevant video: Cron's slick move to reach base | MLB.com
Bear with me. Pretend it's softball. Is the BR out or safe? I have the BR safe, but I need to get some rule cites handy. |
Did a tag occur before the BR touched the base? Looks like no.
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Then I dove into the rulebook. A couple of thoughts from that pass. Oversliding first is not legal in ASA. I would have missed that on the field if it had ever happened. Second, overrunning is not defined in the book so I guess you could decide that was this, but on the I know it when I see it theory this isn't overrunning. |
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As long as not over 3 feet from original avoiding a tag. Might have been 3, but not in my judgment. |
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But a runner can't take any path they want to 1B and still be considered over running the bag. Consider for example, U3K, runner gets to the 1B dugout opening but not in when the coach tells her to run. The opening is in a line with 1st and 2nd. The runner can't overrun at all from that angle. I'm not inclined to let a runner overrun it along that same line going the other way either. |
My breakdown of this:
The BR overran the base but did not touch it; he returned and touched before he was tagged, (the tag would be an appeal anyway, so even if the tag was before the touch, there would have to be someting indicating an appeal). But, then the BR lost contact with the base after returning, so on the second tag, out. I get the point about any ol' direction on the overrun, but this is close enough to be an overrun (the first time) IMO. Besides, technically, the BR loses his protection for an try for 2nd, not for a somewhat curved overrun path. But, in the end the BR is out on the second tag. |
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After watching the video quite a few times, it seems like this would be treated like any overrun where the runner misses the bag then returns (in this case the touch of the hand) and then steps off the bag and is tagged. What if the runner would have simply missed the bag with no close play, followed by a live ball appeal, a slide back into 1st that beats the tag or touch, then a roll off the bag, then another tag? I've got an out in that scenario and I believe in the video also.
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For the reasons stated in the above two posts, which I could not figure out how to state last night when I first read this, count me as having an out as well. My feeling is I would have an out real time bc that was my initial reaction to the video. Something about him touching with hand and being off bag and tagged seemed off.
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This was originally posted in the Facebook Softball umpires group and the almost unanimous opinion was an out. I brought up the issue of the allowance for the batter-runner to run through first base without liability to be out absent an attempt to second base.
I haven't yet been able to find or stretch a rule that says that after a BR overruns first then returns, they have to stay there. This may a good one to kick up the chain..... |
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See the definition of BR and 8-8-I. |
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I think hits the nail on the head |
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If truly is at the time of reaching first base, then no one can legally overrun 1B, as it would mean you reached the base and are no longer a BR! I think this definition requires some subtlety in interpretation. However, 8-8-I requires the BR to touch it. That isn't the case here so it isn't applicable on the "first" overrun. The "first" overrun isn't a legal overrun, and thus never happened. We cannot assume the runner touches the base when he passes it in this case. RS #1-L (Appeals) explains why: We assume the BR to have touched 1B when he passes it before the ball arrives for the purposes of the judgment call on the "force" out. (I know this is not technically a force, but work with me). That is not the case. The ball beat the runner, but the throw was errant. For the purposes of the missed base, I don't think this is any different than any other missed base that happens right in front of us, which means a proper live-ball appeal needs to happen. I think the relevant softball rules (speaking ASA) are 8-7-A, -G, -H, and -I, plus 8-8-I. The runner is out when: A: A runner runs more than three feet from their base path to avoid a tag. No, not out. (Interesting side note, if a B/R is not a runner, can the B/R legally deviate 3+ feet to avoid a tag? Common sense says no, but good luck finding a rule.) G: A runner fails to touch a base (yes) and the ball is returned to the infield and properly appealed (no, not from what I see in the video). No, not out. H: A batter-runner legally overruns first base (defined in 8-8-1 as touching, so no as RS #1 tells us when to assume the BR "touched" on passing), attempts to run to second base (no), and is legally touched with the ball while off the base. No, not out. I: When running or sliding for any base and the runner fails to touch it, provided the defense properly appeals. I didn't see a proper appeal, just a tag attempt. No, not out. So he's not out before he finally touches the base. What about after? Well, the applicable rule is already listed above, 8-7-H. The runner, after touching the base and overrunning, did not attempt to advance to second before he was legally tagged. The former batter-runner is not out. |
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The BR legally avoided a tag at ~7 sec point of the video, and overran and missed the base at ~ 8 sec point, and returned to touch the base before being tagged (assuming this was a legal live ball appeal) at ~9 sec. At this point, the BR has overrun the base and returned to touch the base. Everything after that is just a runner losing contact with the base and being tagged, twice, actually. The first tag was at ~9.5 on the foot; the second was at ~14 sec on the right leg. Suppose there was no play being made, and a batter-runner made a little circle around 1B, reached down and touched the bag from the right field side, and then stepped back and just stood there, slowly shuffling toward the base. Would you consider the runner to be protected as a BR who has overrun 1B? I think the answer to that is, essentially, where you and I would disagree. I see the overrun as his first time past the bag; you see this as a circuitous route to the bag where the touch is the first time past the bag. |
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Under ASA, 8-8-I says the runner is not out if he overruns first base after touching it. It is clear he does not touch it. I am interested in any other rule citations that say we should judge this an overrun. It could change my entire perspective on this play. |
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I doubt you will find a rule to clarify things, since I don't believe "overrun" is defined in the book. I'm just basing it on "did the runner pass the base or not"? If the runner passed the base, he must have either overrun or rounded. If circling around the base by a few feet and coming back at it from the other side is not passing the base, how long of a circle around does it have to be before is does become passing the base? BTW, it does seem like the MLB umpire agrees with your judgment on this... :o |
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Here's another one. Runner rounds first and misses the bag on the way. She gets to second coach yells at her to hustle back. She runs back to first and doesn't hold the bag and is tagged out. Are you saying that's an overrun? If not why not? Going just one further though, speaking just softball and not baseball this video is at best an overslide not an overrun and there is no oversliding first exception in ASA as there is in OBR. |
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The player is no longer entitled to overrun protection as she has attempted to advance to 2B. The runner is out as a live-ball appeal for the missed base if they tagged her before the retouch of 1B, out as an overslide if off the bag. 8-7-H, 8-7-B The current ASA rule book is a bit ambiguous whether "slides beyond or loses contact with a base" requires a slide. My oldest still-all-in-one piece book is 2005 and back then there was overslide protection. No longer relevant except to point out that the old wording referred specifically to sliding. There is no use of the word overslide (that I can find) in the rest of the book. If this is not an overrun under 8-8-I, then OK, this could be an overslide out under 8-7-B. I am still curious how we can adjudge the batter-runner overrunning 1B without a touch as spelled out in 8-8-I, though. Per the other comment that 8-8-I doesn't define overrunning, that's the rule that the index sends me to when I lookup Overrunning First Base. Also RS#37. |
Speaking ASA
To start, I would question it not being out of base path, but no one is going to have an angle to sell that. BR passed and missed the base. Appeal available. F3 obviously pursuing that play. Runner safely returns. Unfortunately, while the ball is live voluntarily leaves the base and is legally tagged out. |
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consensus
I like to find a consensus in topics, especially one like this with divergent comments on multiple tangents.
It looks like the consensus is that the BR actually does overrun 1st during his pivot, is safe with his hand touch, is out with the foot tag. Also, consensus seems to be no attempt at 2nd; and for purpose of this discussion, ignored the 3 feet off path possibility. |
BTW, a great example if the inconsistency of rules and terms (not to mention interpretations), both within and between books. :eek:
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Irish - this is probably the best summary in layman's terms I've seen in the thread. I went back and re-watched the play after realizing I was 5 posts into this thread without seeing it again after my first post. I'll agree that this is an out under 8-7-B.
Youngump - I know you're trying to get me to think through the interpretation with evermore improbable scenarios, which is a good way to logically test the rules. However, I think we're beyond the pale on instances that apply to this play. Cecil - Completely agree on the highlighting of inconsistencies. There are a number of points raised in this thread, and the ASA rules I cited, that could benefit from clarification, such as: - Define "reaches a base": When this term is used in the book, it seems to include passing and touching. - Define "passes a base": What is the point at which a base is considered passed, especially when there is no attempt to advance past it? The consensus seems to be the base line connecting the base in question and the next one, regardless of the direction the runner is moving. Other than common sense (which isn't always applicable :D) I can't find this in the book. - Define the conditions for a legal overrun at 1B more clearly - Live ball appeal requirements - The Overslide definition Et cetera... |
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