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NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

I would call that preventitive umpiring. If you can keep something against the rules from happening then do it!! JMO

Not illegal, just unreported.
Fairly common to handle an unreported that way, but don't think it is in the rules anywhere.

Penalty if occurs is restriction to the bench along with the head coach.
Sorry, team warning and restricted on next offense.

While in NFHS it is essentially no penalty, in other rule sets there are penalties for an unreported sub. I do not consider it to be preventive umpiring to bring it to the team or coaches attention. Yes, in FED it is basically nothing, but in most other rule sets there are penalties the opposing team could use to their advantage on both offense and defense. If you bring it to the offending teams attention you are removing the other teams ability to appeal that infraction. As a general rule I treat all rule sets the same and it is the offended teams responsibility to appeal it.

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

For bat out of order, it is upon completion of at bat. But here, as soon as you have to ask, imho, she is unreported and you issue warning. As stated, not a big deal in NFHS.

In the batter box.

3-3-3-d

Cecil, can you re-clarify the penalty for me? Is the coach restricted on the first offense or the second? The rule and its effects are written in a way that can be interpreted differently by people.

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

What he said. :)

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

Concur with everything Andy said.

I had a game a few years ago in which F3 was removed on offense (on the bases); then ran out to play defense once the inning was over. The visiting coach, who at the time was chair of the rules committee, stared at me until the opposing coach re-entered the player. He was making sure I didn't take away his play.
Funny enough, he was very close to not reporting a re-entry a few inning later.

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

Lawyers are usually good at reading for comprehension. That coach should start with rules 8.5 and 15.2. :D

PONY National qualifier this weekend (PONY's pretty rough with their unreported sub penalty)...

Batter is on her 2nd-3rd pitch at bat, when I hear, from the defense dugout, "Blue, should she be there?"...

3B coach immediately calls, "Time, Blue! I wanna re-enter that player."

I didn't accept DC's question as a valid appeal, and noted the reentry on my sheet. I suppose I could have.

I agree, for NCAA, EXCEPT ...

NFHS doesn't require the opposing team to notify the umpire of an unreported player, or other violations covered by rule 3-6. The key phrase has always been "when noticed", not when appealed; and it isn't a defined appeal!!. And the offense has every opportunity to meet the requirement to report until the player entered the batter's box.

This specific instance, "when noticed" by the plate umpire AFTER she entered the batter's box was a violation, and should have included the warning under 3-6-7 Penalty.

Yes, the NFHS rule does state when noticed but every case play regarding unreported substitutes states when brought to the umpires attention by the offended coach, the offensive coach or the defensive coach. None of the case plays would indicate the umpire should rule on the infraction until brought to their attention by the other team.

The final case play only says brought to the attention of the umpire. It does not say by whom.

I personally have issued an unreported sub warning for a player I have witnessed in the game unreported.

The situation was as follows? #4 was the starting right fielder for the home team. In the third inning, the coach came up and indicated that #18 was going in for #4 in the batting order (her team was up, and #4/#18's spot was the leadoff batter). The coach also informed me that #4 would be going back in on defense. I made it clear to the coach she had to tell me when the actual substitution was made for #4 going back in (as I can not accept a projected substitution). During the defensive half of the inning, I look out and see #4 back in the outfield. I warned the team for an unreported substitute because 1) The coach had been informed I needed to be made aware of the substitution when #4 went back in for #18 and 2) It is within my rights as the plate umpire to rule on such circumstances because I noticed the player not properly reported.

Except one of them does say when brought to the attention of the umpire, but does not specify by whom the infraction was brought to the attention by.

Which OTHER violation of 3-6 would you wait until brought to your attention by an opposing coach?

Illegal equipment
Fake tag
Carelessly throwing bat
Hitting balls to players to warm up after the game has started
Out of the approved team areas
Using amplifiers or bullhorns
.........

Okay, the case plays all state the infractions are brought to the umpire's attention; does that mean that is the only way it might be noticed, or might it simply be the predominant play, and immaterial to the case play ruling??

When did you notice her? Was it before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live? If so, that is preventative umpiring, and yes the coach has the right to be upset, but you did what you felt was right for the game.

If you noticed her and asked her before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live (3-3-3-d and 3-3-3-e) the team has not committed an unreported substitution violation because at the point the unreported substitute had not yet entered the game. If it was after she was in the box and the ball was declared live, then she has entered the game unreported and a team warning must be issued.

I would say this, I generally will not use preventative umpiring on things like this. It is up to the players and coaches to know the rules about substitutions and lineups. I expect the coach, as the adult, to follow the rules.

I will use preventative umpiring in situations where a rule isn't yet broken, but could be if the action continues.

Examples of this include seeing a player warming up with jewelry on. I will issue a reminder before the game starts (to both teams) to prevent an issue like this from happening. If I see a pitcher come out with a glove on her pitching hand, I will issue a reminder to take it off, rather than wait until it becomes illegal.

Another is a "thrown" bat. If a batter swings and tosses the bat to an area where it isn't an issue, but it was clearly a thrown bat, I generally won't issue a warning, but I will remind the coach. (If it is thrown and hits me or the catcher, it is a team warning immediately).

Believe it or not, I do try to avoid as many problems as I can.

Now here is one for you guys. You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

Yes...it is within your rights to issue a warning here, but in my opinion, this is the act of an OOO (over officious official) looking for boogers. Makes you appear to be looking for a "gotcha" call against this team.

I've got no problem with you doing this as long as you aren't obnoxious about it. I choose not to do this. It is not my job to track the batting order each time a batter comes up, only to rule on a batting out of order appeal.

At 10U, I'll tell the player they get to bat first next inning. I will not go to "everyone" to make sure they are on the same page.

At 12U and up, or HS, not only SHOULD they know... but they WILL know - I've yet to have BOO occur in a game like this.

Once they are 12, they will not let the at bat go. :rolleyes:

Had my first non-HS/MS game of the season today and it was a 12/U game. The league uses a maximum runs per inning rule. 4 consecutive half innings ended with the run limit being reached on a passed ball while the batter was still at bat. Twice, there was an issue of which batter was supposed to be at bat to start the inning. At 12/U they still are not sure, at least not in this league.

Slightly off topic. Why is softball so strict about unreported subs and baseball does not care?

You would have to ask baseball. Maintaining an up-to-the-second accurate line-up card eases any questions or protests as it would pertain to the official line up.

Beside, people cheat

Two years ago, I noticed an illegal re-entry that was unreported. I dealt with it and I do think it was my place to do so. Anyone disagree?

I'm not sure there is a reason. Different sports, different rules.

Unreported batters are usually caught by the other team. It's when they're unreported when the team takes the field that they usually don't get noticed.

What was the situation?

A starter, replaced, reentered, replaced, reentered a second time. :eek:
I recognized her because originally a pitcher and because I said "that's her reentry" to the coach the first time.
Might not have noticed right away if an outfielder. :rolleyes:

That's what I was thinking....I still wouldn't have done anything on my own.
You now have an illegal substitute, which carries a heavier penalty that could be to the other team's advantage.

Let the other team bring it up when it is to their advantage. If they don't, then they weren't paying attention or chose not to appeal.

This all assumes the player was not reported, if the coach tries to report her back in the game, you are obviously not going to allow it.

I disagree. IMO, if you know a player is not entitled to enter the game, you don't allow it just as you wouldn't allow a team to move the FLEX into a position in the batter order for other than the DP

What about the legal standpoint on this. Player A has illegally entered the game. She is later injured while participating illegally in the game. The scorebooks show that she should not have been in the game. The family of said player now decide to sue anyone and everyone for this injury. Now you have an issue to deal with. Even if you are not ruled against, and you have insurance to cover defending a lawsuit like this, you have the aggravation of dealing with this.

If you knowingly allow an illegal player into the game, and the rules specifically say when noticed, but don't specify by whom, you are expected to rule when you notice. Failure to do so is not following the rules.

An illegal sub in NFHS carries more penalties and the offended coach can choose to take the result of the play or a do over if the illegal sub is involved in a play. What would your response be to a coach that was waiting for an opportune time to use the illegal sub to their advantage?

Too bad, sorry, but rules are rules; and they are my job.

Completely agree. The rule should not read an illegal substitute may be discovered by the UMPIRE or by either team if they did not want the umpires doing this job. The rule is written the way it is for a reason. If we notice it, we need to enforce it. If the opposing team is "waiting for the opportune time" they are using this as gamesmanship more than playing within the spirit of the rules anyway.

I would have no problem if the rules said an illegal player may be noticed by either team, but that is not what the rule says.

What would I say to the coach who was waiting. "Coach, I am obligated under the rules to deal with it in this manner when I notice it."

The rule says nothing about the umpire being obligated to enforce it when noticed. The rule says may be discovered by the umpire.

So, do you make it a point to recognize every player on both teams, so you know when this happens each and every time?

Or, do you selectively enforce this against players that stand out for some reason?

;)

When I notice one, in baseball, I don't allow it. I can't notice all of them, but I can't help that.

You call what you can see. No different than having the bases loaded trying to call a running leaving early. You may not notice every time every runner leaves contact with the base, but are you going to not call it if you see it happen?

However, if you as an umpire notice it, since it is a rules violation, you are obligated to call it. It's called doing your job. The rule certainly does not say, "The umpire may notice an illegal substitute and fail to act upon it"

The simple fact is when you notice something illegal you have an obligation to act upon that knowledge in accordance with the rules.

I continue to appreciate your wisdom. :cool:

Except those specifically requiring an appeal.

"in accordance with the rules."

Hopefully. :rolleyes: